NOTÍCIAS DO RAFALE
Moderadores: Glauber Prestes, Conselho de Moderação
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Carlos Mathias
Re: Rafale News
Olha, isso é um artigo de jornal. Pode ser uma godoyada, ou não. Acho melhor esperar as declarações oficiais tanto do gov. indiano, quanto da DAssault.
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Hader
Re: Rafale News
Eles não gostaram de pagar o "quinzinho" e serem passados para trás pelos anfitriões. Quem já fez negócios com o governo indiano sabe do que estou falando...Dieneces escreveu:Os Indianos dão a entender que os franceses ou sabiam que não teriam a menor chance no MRCA local ou...não gostam de dinheiro...Santiago escreveu:Editorial: Dassault Aviation’s Rafale push got a bug
April 17th, 2009
Posted by Frontier India Strategic and Defence
The French Dassault Aviation’s Rafale should be like any other so called 4th generation fighter aircraft. May be its two notches above its competitor, we do not know, we only saw some colored sales literature. May be it performed in Afghanistan. One thing for sure currently is that it does not has an export order. Dassault Aviation one great company. One may ask why such a wonderful aircraft and great company does not has an export order?
Ok, its not confirmed, it may be rumor mill or some dirty trick, even denied by Dassault that Rafale has been struck out of the Indian Air Force Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. Many reasons have been dished out.
As per the Indian Express report “The early elimination of the Rafale is also being attributed by insiders to its high cost and the failure to respond to technical queries. While commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter was considerably more than most competitors. Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.”
How true is this report, we do not know and vouch for it. But the part we want to highlight is ” Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.”
The first time we noted the lack of interest from Dassault Aviation representatives was in Aero India 2005. Any query directed to them about the Rafale or any other system was met with lethargy or arrogance. For example, why did you not bring Rafale? Answer: We did not think it was important. The same question was posed to them in Aero India 2007 and Aero India 2009. The replies varied from nothing to oh! we have an European show, just one demo aircraft, the cost did not justify it, its flying some where else etc etc. We do not want to speak for others, but, we are sure that others have felt the indifference too.
If some one in the Ministry or Air Force is miffed on the attitude of the representatives, its understandable.
Great products don’t sell by themselves. Even if they manage, certainly not with that attitude.
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Penguin
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Re: Rafale News
Burst shot down or for real victim of the Gripen syndrome?
by Edouard Ticket
in Paris
If we believe in recent press reports (Dow Jones, Reuters, etc..) Dassault would be about to make its Rafale fighter remain a true "French exception". The news is still not confirmed but an anonymous official MoD is said to have announced to the media that the French combat aircraft has been rejected from the IAF MMRCA contest.
What happened? Is it really true? Is the Rafale a victim of the Gripen syndrome? Remember January when rumors popped up suggesting that Saab's JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of the field trials following the IAF's Technical Evaluation Committee report.
The news (if confirmed) sounds very. The aircraft, among the six contenders, is maybe one of the most pertinent for the IAF in terms of technical and operational aspects given the wide range of capabilities but let's try to put some distance between us and the aircraft first.
I think it is useless here to make yet another technical description of the aircraft itself. Every reader of this blog knows now the different features of each contender and their strengths / weaknesses. But maybe we should do the right assessment, instead. This recent announcement (if true) was released just after Air Chief Marshal FH Major, the Chief of Air Staff, said the first technical evaluation made by the Military is over. Field trials have not begun yet and will probably be launched just after the elections in mid-May, and Dassault's offer has already been rejected. In other words, it looks like the offer has been rejected instead of the Rafale.
But what really happened? The debate now seems to have jumped from the technical / technological sphere into the commercial / strategic sphere. The Rafale is a really good plane and shows its potential almost each day in Afghanistan or simply during its test campaigns in the hands of the French flight test center (CEV) teams. Its potential and its present capabilities are really great, no doubt about that. But let's question ourselves about the way the Indian commercial campaign has been led by its maker and the French authorities. The problem might be here.
Some Indian observers believe that Dassault does not really believe the fact that the RFP process will survive the coming elections. Except this hypothesis, nothing can really explain the lack of communication from the French side that many observers have highlighted compared to the trade show orchestrated by Boeing, Lockheed Martin (even the flames on the runway ... the Americans always bring some special FX with them! ) or even EADS.
Many things are not clear at all because of a lack of official communication from the MoD. But would it be reasonable to put into perspective the MMRCA deal and the future contract to upgrade the IAF's Mirage 2000? Indian authorities did make understand that Dassault Rafale Mirage + is an impossible equation given their will to reinforce their ties with the U.S.? Because if we remember the words that Indian officials said few months ago that clearly signified "We will not sign any other strategic partnership apart from those with the U.S. and Russia" Therefore, the die is cast?
Another element that should be taken into account in the 'unconfirmed' statement made by the anonymous official MoD is the price of Dassault's offer. This argument seems to be recurrent concerning French offers in general, and was heard concerning notably the Mirage 2000 upgrade program. If some observers and French militaries sometimes reproach programs to be expensive, the most part of them also admit in the same time that French products have very good records in terms of serviceability, and are not linked to any constraining end-use monitoring agreements. Maybe quality and sovereignty have a cost. That's a thought.
Let's try to stay careful for now since the "rejection" has not been formalized yet. Dassault itself, according to one of its spokespersons, still has not been informed of anything by the Indian government.
Even if we try to get out of technical discussions, many readers here would probably agree with that: it is quite frustrating to totally ignore technological aspects to focus only on commercial reflections. Because, indeed, one question remains. What makes possible the fact that the Rafale is excluded for technical reasons and not the Gripen, for instance? Neither the Gripen IN / NG nor the MiG-35 are operational and field trials expected to start next month, which could become a strange mix of prototype and operational aircraft test flights. The Rafale F3 standard in its today is a very competitive aircraft. Neither the cheapest nor the most expensive solution, its abilities have a strong point: they are proven (Red Flag, Afghanistan) and, minimally, at the same level of the five other contenders.
What can we have against it? Maybe its good "multirole" nature. So good that it is not the "best" in a particular mission, except maybe deep penetration missions in air-to-ground attack mode given its small EM / IR signature and its important SPECTRA survivability with its self-protection system.
What is censorship in its configuration? Mainly two points:
1) Its thrust - an engine able to deliver 90kN would have been better, notably for high-altitude take-off and landings, but technically the solution already exists with the M88 ECO. Even if this engine is not yet in production, an agreement seems to be possible (and is thought) between the DRDO (and more specifically the GTRE) and Snecma as a possible way to boost the Kaveri program (but here again the IAF expressed its reluctance due to the level of proposed Tots).
2) Its radar: an AESA is said to be required in the IAF's ASQR. Thales has been finalizing the development of its new AESA RBE2 for months, which is now ready for low rate production. This system has been flight tested many times in France and was recently evaluated by Swiss pilots in the frame of Switzerland AF own contest to replace its old F-5. According to local sources, pilots are really enthusiastic and enjoyed its performance (range, precision) in various tactical environments (mountains, jammed areas, etc.).. Those sources also said most pilots who have flown the Rafale and the other proposed aircraft (ie Gripen and EF) expressed their preference for the French fighter. Furthermore, tots proposed to India by Thales for the AESA RBE2 seemed to be very interesting.
So where is the logic? Dassault's offer probably would have been rejected in the last part of the MMRCA evaluation process at the political / economical level, given the strategic interest to opt for an American solution. But such a rejection is now quite hardly understandable. So wait and see, for two reasons: 1) to see if the announcement is true and 2) to gain more distance with all these parameters.
If ever the announcement is validated by Indian officials, maybe French authorities will have to in turn take some distance with their way to support the French industry abroad. Here again, let's do a flashback two months ago during Aero India 09 and let's remember the words of Nicolas Sarkozy's adisor on International Affairs Jean-David Levitte. According to him the damageable Gust was under political pressure in India. He said he asked the Indian government to consider the Rafale the same way it does with the five other contenders. These words, by carefully listened polemist any, would have been read as: "If you do not select the Rafale that means you are corrupt."
So maybe we should imagine that the French government did not really help Dassault's efforts. Such a hypothesis could be read in the light of the recent defeat in Morocco Rafale, partially caused by a lack of coordination of the Administration with French Dassault's commercial stance.
But all these are only assumptions and ideas to deepen, the discourse of race. Let's wait, savoring a good French red wine. I'm sure you know that wine possesses neuroleptic effects, ie it blunts the peak of emotions and reduces anxiety and stress, providing a mild euphoria and some moral appeasement?
(Ticket is a Paris-based freelance aviation journalist and industry watcher. He was formerly with the testing program at Rafale Dassault Aviation, and has tracked the evolution of the French aircraft industry for over a decade. This column is exclusive to LiveFist)
by Edouard Ticket
in Paris
If we believe in recent press reports (Dow Jones, Reuters, etc..) Dassault would be about to make its Rafale fighter remain a true "French exception". The news is still not confirmed but an anonymous official MoD is said to have announced to the media that the French combat aircraft has been rejected from the IAF MMRCA contest.
What happened? Is it really true? Is the Rafale a victim of the Gripen syndrome? Remember January when rumors popped up suggesting that Saab's JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of the field trials following the IAF's Technical Evaluation Committee report.
The news (if confirmed) sounds very. The aircraft, among the six contenders, is maybe one of the most pertinent for the IAF in terms of technical and operational aspects given the wide range of capabilities but let's try to put some distance between us and the aircraft first.
I think it is useless here to make yet another technical description of the aircraft itself. Every reader of this blog knows now the different features of each contender and their strengths / weaknesses. But maybe we should do the right assessment, instead. This recent announcement (if true) was released just after Air Chief Marshal FH Major, the Chief of Air Staff, said the first technical evaluation made by the Military is over. Field trials have not begun yet and will probably be launched just after the elections in mid-May, and Dassault's offer has already been rejected. In other words, it looks like the offer has been rejected instead of the Rafale.
But what really happened? The debate now seems to have jumped from the technical / technological sphere into the commercial / strategic sphere. The Rafale is a really good plane and shows its potential almost each day in Afghanistan or simply during its test campaigns in the hands of the French flight test center (CEV) teams. Its potential and its present capabilities are really great, no doubt about that. But let's question ourselves about the way the Indian commercial campaign has been led by its maker and the French authorities. The problem might be here.
Some Indian observers believe that Dassault does not really believe the fact that the RFP process will survive the coming elections. Except this hypothesis, nothing can really explain the lack of communication from the French side that many observers have highlighted compared to the trade show orchestrated by Boeing, Lockheed Martin (even the flames on the runway ... the Americans always bring some special FX with them! ) or even EADS.
Many things are not clear at all because of a lack of official communication from the MoD. But would it be reasonable to put into perspective the MMRCA deal and the future contract to upgrade the IAF's Mirage 2000? Indian authorities did make understand that Dassault Rafale Mirage + is an impossible equation given their will to reinforce their ties with the U.S.? Because if we remember the words that Indian officials said few months ago that clearly signified "We will not sign any other strategic partnership apart from those with the U.S. and Russia" Therefore, the die is cast?
Another element that should be taken into account in the 'unconfirmed' statement made by the anonymous official MoD is the price of Dassault's offer. This argument seems to be recurrent concerning French offers in general, and was heard concerning notably the Mirage 2000 upgrade program. If some observers and French militaries sometimes reproach programs to be expensive, the most part of them also admit in the same time that French products have very good records in terms of serviceability, and are not linked to any constraining end-use monitoring agreements. Maybe quality and sovereignty have a cost. That's a thought.
Let's try to stay careful for now since the "rejection" has not been formalized yet. Dassault itself, according to one of its spokespersons, still has not been informed of anything by the Indian government.
Even if we try to get out of technical discussions, many readers here would probably agree with that: it is quite frustrating to totally ignore technological aspects to focus only on commercial reflections. Because, indeed, one question remains. What makes possible the fact that the Rafale is excluded for technical reasons and not the Gripen, for instance? Neither the Gripen IN / NG nor the MiG-35 are operational and field trials expected to start next month, which could become a strange mix of prototype and operational aircraft test flights. The Rafale F3 standard in its today is a very competitive aircraft. Neither the cheapest nor the most expensive solution, its abilities have a strong point: they are proven (Red Flag, Afghanistan) and, minimally, at the same level of the five other contenders.
What can we have against it? Maybe its good "multirole" nature. So good that it is not the "best" in a particular mission, except maybe deep penetration missions in air-to-ground attack mode given its small EM / IR signature and its important SPECTRA survivability with its self-protection system.
What is censorship in its configuration? Mainly two points:
1) Its thrust - an engine able to deliver 90kN would have been better, notably for high-altitude take-off and landings, but technically the solution already exists with the M88 ECO. Even if this engine is not yet in production, an agreement seems to be possible (and is thought) between the DRDO (and more specifically the GTRE) and Snecma as a possible way to boost the Kaveri program (but here again the IAF expressed its reluctance due to the level of proposed Tots).
2) Its radar: an AESA is said to be required in the IAF's ASQR. Thales has been finalizing the development of its new AESA RBE2 for months, which is now ready for low rate production. This system has been flight tested many times in France and was recently evaluated by Swiss pilots in the frame of Switzerland AF own contest to replace its old F-5. According to local sources, pilots are really enthusiastic and enjoyed its performance (range, precision) in various tactical environments (mountains, jammed areas, etc.).. Those sources also said most pilots who have flown the Rafale and the other proposed aircraft (ie Gripen and EF) expressed their preference for the French fighter. Furthermore, tots proposed to India by Thales for the AESA RBE2 seemed to be very interesting.
So where is the logic? Dassault's offer probably would have been rejected in the last part of the MMRCA evaluation process at the political / economical level, given the strategic interest to opt for an American solution. But such a rejection is now quite hardly understandable. So wait and see, for two reasons: 1) to see if the announcement is true and 2) to gain more distance with all these parameters.
If ever the announcement is validated by Indian officials, maybe French authorities will have to in turn take some distance with their way to support the French industry abroad. Here again, let's do a flashback two months ago during Aero India 09 and let's remember the words of Nicolas Sarkozy's adisor on International Affairs Jean-David Levitte. According to him the damageable Gust was under political pressure in India. He said he asked the Indian government to consider the Rafale the same way it does with the five other contenders. These words, by carefully listened polemist any, would have been read as: "If you do not select the Rafale that means you are corrupt."
So maybe we should imagine that the French government did not really help Dassault's efforts. Such a hypothesis could be read in the light of the recent defeat in Morocco Rafale, partially caused by a lack of coordination of the Administration with French Dassault's commercial stance.
But all these are only assumptions and ideas to deepen, the discourse of race. Let's wait, savoring a good French red wine. I'm sure you know that wine possesses neuroleptic effects, ie it blunts the peak of emotions and reduces anxiety and stress, providing a mild euphoria and some moral appeasement?
(Ticket is a Paris-based freelance aviation journalist and industry watcher. He was formerly with the testing program at Rafale Dassault Aviation, and has tracked the evolution of the French aircraft industry for over a decade. This column is exclusive to LiveFist)
Sempre e inevitavelmente, cada um de nós subestima o número de indivíduos estúpidos que circulam pelo mundo.
Carlo M. Cipolla
Carlo M. Cipolla
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Re: Rafale News
the most part of them also admit in the same time that French products have very good records in terms of serviceability, and are not linked to any constraining end-use monitoring agreements. Maybe quality and sovereignty have a cost.
"O que se percebe hoje é que os idiotas perderam a modéstia. E nós temos de ter tolerância e compreensão também com os idiotas, que são exatamente aqueles que escrevem para o esquecimento"
NJ
Re: Rafale News
Se der NG ou SH na India, é porque eles estão com dificuldades para produzir alguma coisa para o PaK-Fa.....Wolfgang escreveu:Vai dar NG ou SH na Índia e Brasil...
Se der Mig-35, será a coisa mais normal do mundo.....
No Brasil, não sei porque, mas eu não consigo excluir ninguem da disputa...... e quem vencer, terá seu motivo......
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Penguin
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Re: Rafale News
A saida do Rafale do concurso MMRCA pode ate ser desmentida pela IAF, mas o silencio oficial indiano ate agora nao deixa de ser pertubador. Afinal, foi um integrante da IAF que supostamente vazou a noticia. Caberia no minimo um desmentido a Dassault, se nao fosse verdadeira.orestespf escreveu:Até agora não quis comentar este assunto, não por conveniência, mas por querer aguardar mais informações. Vejam estas que negritei: a primeira é meio "óbvia", mas justifica pouco ou quase nada, visto que o Typhoon continua no páreo e não é tão barato assim.Marino escreveu:Do ZM:
Un funcionario del ministerio de defensa de India declaró en el día de hoy que el Dassault Rafale ha sido eliminado del concurso MRCA por no cumplir con los requisitos técnicos y por contar con costos muy elevados de operación y mantenimiento.
"El Rafale está fuera de la carrera por el proceso de licitación, ya que durante la evaluación técnica de la empresa no cumplió con todos los requisitos"..dijo el alto funcionario del ministerio, que estaba hablando con la condición de no ser nombrado.
También citó "el costo relativamente mayor de la aeronave", y añadió: "Las razones serán comunicadas oficialmente a la empresa muy pronto." "Dassault no pueden presentar nuevas propuestas o de cualquier otras variantes para la evaluación técnica, y está fuera de carrera."
Desde Dassault no se ha recivido ningún comentario, limitándose un portavoz a indicar que el consorcio GIE Rafale Internacional (Dassault, Snecma y Thales) no ha recibido ninguna información de las autoridades de la India".
El programa MRCA prevé la compra de 18 aeronaves de combate en el año 2012 y la construcción local de 108 unidades, no descartándose la extensión del contrato por otro lote adicional de 64 ejemplares.
Fuente: AFP, Nueva Delhi
Já a segunda parte negritada... (rsrsrsrs) Existe um mal-humor aparente dos indianos em relação aos franceses, algo aconteceu. Não acredito que dizer que a Dassault não pode apresentar mais propostas seja uma crítica direta ao Brasil (leia-se NJ e os russos), isto é mais restritivo do que parece, sugere que os franceses colocaram no papel uma coisa (pra eles), mas para insinua que pra outros é diferente.
Posso estar errado (normal! rsrs), mas está claro (até agora) que os franceses pisaram na bola lá na Índia, só pode. A frase é típica de quem está pra lá de puto, algo que sugere uma desclassificação por "falta de diálogo" (não é desculpa, entendam o significado!).
Falar que os indianos desclassificaram o Rafale porque procuravam um caça "mais barato", me parece meio simplista, visto que outros caças igualmente caros (ou até mais) continuam na disputa. Dizer que o caça é ruim, não parece fazer muito sentido também, só se os franceses estiverem enganando o mundo. Tudo sugere que os franceses estão querendo fazer de terceiros os financiadores de seus investimentos (caríssimos!) em seu novo caça. Aí faz mais do que sentido, até porque a tradição...
Agora, pergunto: as falas recentes do NJ se referiam (reclamação) a quem? Sobre a "parte" da FAB está mais do que claro, mas falo agora sobre os concorrentes "oficiais". Se o Rafale não tem vendas internacionais, pelo menos a França comprou e comprará mais alguns. O Gripen NG pagou o maior mico de sua história (se é que pode-se falar assim, pois não nasceu ainda) com a Noruega, sem falar que a Suécia, até agora, nadinha de nada! Emplacar aqui pode ser problemático, mas no mundo maluco dos malucos (políticos???), tudo pode. Já o americano F-18, bem... Até o embaixador "desmentiu" o NJ (SIC), então não deve ser recado pra Boeing (sic).
A coisa está difícil pra nós no FX-2, a FAB está "enrolada" mesmo (sic). Um caça que nem o país de origem compra (12??? Lembro-me dos russos no FX-1 e seus 10 SU-35 "1"); outro que só cria "confusão" e não vende (a não ser para o "proprietário"); e por fim um que o Governo "luta contra". Coitada da FAB, ninguém a entende mesmo... (sic)
Alguns poderiam alegar que o Rafale, mesmo assim, seria mais do que adequado ao Brasil. Sim, sem dúvida alguma, um baita caça (minha opinião, apesar de não ser o meu nº 1 desde o início), mas só que pra isso deveríamos ter um "diferencial" (caso não existam outros compradores além de França e Brasil). Sobre este diferencial tenho sérias dúvidas hoje, a França não iria financiar nossas "aventuras" e nos deixar em idênticas condições.
E o que sobra pra FAB? Talvez algo bom (seu caça a ser escolhido), talvez o "não" fortemente ecoado pelo MD/Governo. Uma coisa é inegável, a FAB aprendeu muito com seus erros desde o FX-1, "apenas" cometeu erros novos de lá pra cá, mas erros ainda comprometedores sob a ótica daqueles que detêm o poder (erro crasso). A Índia está aí pra servir de exemplo.
Orestes
A suposta saida antecipada do belo caca frances, antes mesmo dos ensaios, deixaria claro que houveram problemas reais entre a Dassault e os indianos. Indicios nesta direcao tem vazado na imprensa de uma forma geral nos ultimos dias.
Se a saida do Rafale for um boato maldoso e/ou intencional, que partiu do seio da IAF, qual o proposito? Um alerta e aviso a Dassault?
[]s
Sempre e inevitavelmente, cada um de nós subestima o número de indivíduos estúpidos que circulam pelo mundo.
Carlo M. Cipolla
Carlo M. Cipolla
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orestespf
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Re: Rafale News
Olá Jacques,Santiago escreveu:
A saida do Rafale do concurso MMRCA pode ate ser desmentida pela IAF, mas o silencio oficial indiano ate agora nao deixa de ser pertubador. Afinal, foi um integrante da IAF que supostamente vazou a noticia. Caberia no minimo um desmentido a Dassault, se nao fosse verdadeira.
A suposta saida antecipada do belo caca frances, antes mesmo dos ensaios, deixaria claro que houveram problemas reais entre a Dassault e os indianos. Indicios nesta direcao tem vazado na imprensa de uma forma geral nos ultimos dias.
Se a saida do Rafale for um boato maldoso e/ou intencional, que partiu do seio da IAF, qual o proposito? Um alerta e aviso a Dassault?
[]s
talvez não tenha sido suficientemente objetivo, mas está claro pra mim que o Rafale realmente saiu do MMRCA. Não se deve esperar que a Dassault confirme tal notícia antes de uma posição oficial dos indianos. Por outro lado, os indianos no máximo dirão quem continua no processo, muito provavelmente não informando os motivos reais que fizeram com que o Rafale tenha saído. Neste caso o processo é sempre político e a parte interessada nunca expõe os concorrentes sobre os pontos fracos de seus produtos.
Não acredito que a saída do Rafale se deve a "limitações" no projeto do caça, quem pagaria o mico seria a Dassault ao insistir veementemente com um produto questionável e que em algum momento poderia ser abertamente questionado por algum interessado, sem falar que a própria França ficaria ridicularizada ao possuir um vetor (ruim) que vai substituir toda sua frota de combate. Em minha opinião o que atrapalha o Rafale nestas concorrências internacionais é o custo de desenvolvimento que provavelmente está sendo repassado aos interessados como forma de terceirizar os gastos dos franceses (hoje em dia ninguém aceita isso, foi-se o tempo).
Isto é péssimo por um lado, mas é altamente benéfico por outro. Por exemplo, o fato de não vender deixa os franceses cada vez mais pressionados a negociar dentro das normas de algum comprador. No caso brasileiro, que exige cada vez mais transferência de tecnologia, os franceses poderiam ceder radicalmente neste quesito, de forma tal que o caça passaria a ter uma cara "franco-brasileiro" (não no sentido de desenvolvimento), mesmo pagando caro por isso. Neste caso, pagar mais por um caça, compensa mais do que qualquer outro, mesmo sendo "igual" ou até ligeiramente inferior em alguns pontos (não estou dizendo que este é o caso do Rafale). Mas insisto, pagar mais sim, desde que venham tecnologias expressivas e de nosso interesse, e não tecnologias que os franceses aceitam repassar, caso contrário, não em definitivo (como o caso indiano).
Portanto, acredito que a desclassificação do Rafale na concorrência indiana ajuda muito mais o MD/Brasil em seus propósitos do que atrapalha. Ganhamos mais munição do que tínhamos antes. Mas observe que estou partindo do princípio que o Rafale "não tem problemas", se realmente existir algo comprometedor, pra mim, nem deveria estar na short list (aí seria um erro técnico da FAB e também do MD, por omissão deste último).
Grande abraço,
Orestes
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Re: Rafale News
É isso aí, Especulador Geral da República. Que o problema indiano tenha sido político-comercial, não entrando no mérito do caça.
Neste caso, podemos sim ser beneficiados.
Show de bola, Herr Orestes
Neste caso, podemos sim ser beneficiados.
Show de bola, Herr Orestes
"Em geral, as instituições políticas nascem empiricamente na Inglaterra, são sistematizadas na França, aplicadas pragmaticamente nos Estados Unidos e esculhambadas no Brasil"
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orestespf
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Re: Rafale News
alexandre lemos escreveu:É isso aí, Especulador Geral da República. Que o problema indiano tenha sido político-comercial, não entrando no mérito do caça.
Neste caso, podemos sim ser beneficiados.
Show de bola, Herr Orestes
![[009]](./images/smilies/009.gif){kind=small}
PS: os créditos por esta tese, desde o início, são seus, Alexandre. Não havia postado nada até então, precisava formar minha opinião, mas concordo plenamente com seus pensamentos, só vejo lucros pra nós com a saída do Rafale no MMRCA.
Editado pela última vez por orestespf em Sáb Abr 18, 2009 11:47 am, em um total de 1 vez.
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Re: Rafale News
O galho seria se a problematica comercial se repetisse aqui.
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Sempre e inevitavelmente, cada um de nós subestima o número de indivíduos estúpidos que circulam pelo mundo.
Carlo M. Cipolla
Carlo M. Cipolla
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orestespf
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 11430
- Registrado em: Ter Out 17, 2006 5:43 pm
- Agradeceu: 2 vezes
- Agradeceram: 1 vez
Re: Rafale News
Galho para os franceses, pra nós, não! Temos boas opções, ora!Santiago escreveu:O galho seria se a problematica comercial se repetisse aqui.
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Re: Rafale News
Acho até que esse chute la, nos traz ganhos aqui.orestespf escreveu:Galho para os franceses, pra nós, não! Temos boas opções, ora!Santiago escreveu:O galho seria se a problematica comercial se repetisse aqui.
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Vamo la moderação, continuamos confiando na sua imparcialidade.
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Bender
Re: Rafale News
Se a saída for confirmada acho que é ponto para o Brasil,como falaram acima.
Pode ser jogo político e etc,mas várias declarações "francesas" recentes indicam um "emparedamento" com relação ao Rafale e o Brasil,uma espécie de é agora ou nunca,por parte dos franceses,que sujere essa "cara franco-brasileira" que o Orestes falou.
Essa semana eu assisti a uma entrevista do Embaixador frances no Brasil no programa Diplomacia,e tirando aquele lado "politico" do puxa saquismo diplomático,ao se referir aos acordos militares e ao FX2,falou coisas do tipo:"É nosso desejo fazer de tudo e colaborar totalmente,para transformar o Brasil em uma potência militar,independente,que possa assumir as responsabilidades de um país membro do CSO", ou algo assim.Se o governo frances tiver "realmente" essa intenção com relação ao FX2,ou por "desespero" ou por não emplacar uma venda nunca,ou por pragmatismo comercial e político,é possivél que mesmo que tenha um projeto "caro" ele venha a ser muito bom para nós,que lutamos por tots.O jogo continua.
Sds.
Pode ser jogo político e etc,mas várias declarações "francesas" recentes indicam um "emparedamento" com relação ao Rafale e o Brasil,uma espécie de é agora ou nunca,por parte dos franceses,que sujere essa "cara franco-brasileira" que o Orestes falou.
Essa semana eu assisti a uma entrevista do Embaixador frances no Brasil no programa Diplomacia,e tirando aquele lado "politico" do puxa saquismo diplomático,ao se referir aos acordos militares e ao FX2,falou coisas do tipo:"É nosso desejo fazer de tudo e colaborar totalmente,para transformar o Brasil em uma potência militar,independente,que possa assumir as responsabilidades de um país membro do CSO", ou algo assim.Se o governo frances tiver "realmente" essa intenção com relação ao FX2,ou por "desespero" ou por não emplacar uma venda nunca,ou por pragmatismo comercial e político,é possivél que mesmo que tenha um projeto "caro" ele venha a ser muito bom para nós,que lutamos por tots.O jogo continua.
Sds.
Re: Rafale News
Acha?usskelvin escreveu:Acho até que esse chute la, nos traz ganhos aqui.orestespf escreveu: Galho para os franceses, pra nós, não! Temos boas opções, ora!
Eu tenho certeza que todos os chutes, dados tanto aqui e agora lá, nos trarão grandes ganhos....
Aonde estão as Ogivas Nucleares do Brasil???