Meus prezados:
O submarino, tipo U-214, que a Marinha Brasileira quer comprar teve sérios problemas na Grécia.
http://www.alide.com.br/noticias/mb07/index.htm
Um abraço e até mais...
Marinha comprará U-214? Na Grécia êle deu problemas...
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old
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Por lo que e podido leer, entre otros defectos los Griegos encuentran estas graves fallas:
*Ruido excesivo de las maquinas.
*Firma electronica de los sistemas.
*Perdida de potencia en determinadas ocasiones.
*Poca precision en el periscopio de ataque debido a vibraciones en el mismo
*Problemas en el sistema AIP
*Luego tuvieron problemas al escorarse el buque 50º despues de una maniobra.
*Ruido excesivo de las maquinas.
*Firma electronica de los sistemas.
*Perdida de potencia en determinadas ocasiones.
*Poca precision en el periscopio de ataque debido a vibraciones en el mismo
*Problemas en el sistema AIP
*Luego tuvieron problemas al escorarse el buque 50º despues de una maniobra.
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pafuncio
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Novo post do Nassif, no seu blog, acerca do problemático 214. Trata de matérias publicadas na imprensa grega.
Foi postado hoje: O submarino alemão, in http://luisnassif.blig.ig.com.br/
FONTE: Jornal ELEFTHEROTYPIA
12-10-2006 / pg. 7
“THE GERMANS are insisting for the new submarine despite its 6 problems”
“Os alemães insistem no novo submarino apesar dos seis problemas”
“Take it even if it tilts”…
A German-Greek war with already recorded side losses has erupted over the first new submarine, manufactured in the German shipyards of HDW, and according to the contract, should have been accepted by the Hellenic Navy on the 30th of last month.
As it ensues from the relevant documents, not only can’t the acceptance of the submarine take place due to technical problems, but the contract amounting to € 1.7 bill. also risks being breached, provided the Germans don’t accept today “that the recorded problems exist.” It has to be pointed out that Greece has already paid 80% of the contract, that is about € 1.3 bill.
As indicated in relatively official documents, the new submarine “Papanikolis” presents 6 critical problems:
1. Balance and behavior to waves. According to information, in a test of the submarine at sea with bad weather, the submarine tilted more than 50 degrees.
2. The air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. Namely, the submarine’s air-independent propulsion with current breaks down after cruising for some time.
3. Penetration of sea water in the hydraulic system.
4. Acoustic signature. While the submarine should be silent, it isn’t, resulting in it being easily tracked by the enemy.
5. In the “ISUS” system, which is the submarine’s combat system.
6. Attack periscope. If the submarine cruises at a greater speed than three miles per hour, the periscope trembles and cannot target.
They’re putting pressure
The German side is putting pressure with all means, so that the submarine be accepted by Greece, committing to solving the problems, in order to avoid the penal clauses which shall be paid by the German shipyard. It also seems that Germans officials told Greek officials that “the non-acceptance could even lead to the closing of the Skaramangas shipyards.”
Sources of the HNGS who were asked about the issue told us that “the life of the shipyards doesn’t depend on the submarines because there are also the frigates which, if needed, their procurement procedures will be speeded.”
Specifically for the tilting problem, technicians were assuring yesterday that “the situation of the first submarine in the German shipyards, but also of the second one, which is already being manufactured in the Skaramangas shipyards, under German management, is nonreversible.
The error springs from the fact that the Germans used the hull of the previous submarine type with some modifications, and on that they integrated the new systems, resulting on the weight not being able to be distributed in the right way.”
The German side, as at least sources of the Hellenic Ministry of Defense claim, sustains that there is no problem, and they insist that the Hellenic Navy should have accepted the submarine on September 30th, as set in the contract.
Its non-acceptance started a war which is mainly unfolding offstage, and to which are due the recent resignations of the commander of the submarines command, Captain Alexandros Madonis, and of the command’s official, Commander Minas Papadakis, according to those who know the issue.
Additionally, it is worth noting that yesterday morning a rumor spread regarding the resignation of the General Director of Armaments, Mr. Vassilakos, related to the issue, which was categorically refuted.”
FONTE: Jornal ADESMEFTOS TYPOS
12-10-2006 / pg. 6
“PASOK had ordered them” The government is not giving in to pressure
WE’RE NOT ACCEPTING the useless submarines!
For the first time, the Hellenic government is refusing to give in to pressure, to accept a weapons system which doesn’t comply with the conditions, while the responsibilities of the supplying company are big. The contract with the German company HDW, regarding the sale to Greece of four submarines is leading to a “wreck”, as the suppliers require that we accept and pay them for the submarines which present critical problems, while they refuse any written commitment to solve them.
An illustration of the way the manufacturing company HDW regards our country is the sentence told to the Greek responsible committee of the Hellenic Navy “Take them and if the captain’s good and listens to our directions, the submarine won’t… tilt when it cruises.”
Meeting
Today, always according to information, there will be a meeting of Pentagon officials with the Germans, as an ultimate effort of the latter to commit in order to solve the problems, and the contract to move ahead.
The first of the four German submarines (Type 214), which was manufactured in Kiel, and
should have been delivered at the end of 2005, presents a tilt reaching 36 degrees in
submersion and at cruise, depending on the wind and waves.
And unfortunately, this is not the only serious problem, which hasn’t yet been determined if due to an error in design or in shipbuilding of subject submarine.
The air-independent propulsion system, an advantage thanks to which it was selected by the Hellenic Navy, and the order was given, also presents a great malfunction.
It concerns a system which allows the submarine to remain hidden below the surface of the sea for a long time.
Its noisy propeller is also viewed as a serious problem, as it creates “hollows”, and makes it detectable by the enemy sonar, at great distances as well.
A malfunction is also noticed in the attack periscope, as well as in its hydraulic systems (!).
The order-procurement contract was signed at the beginning of 2000 by the then minister Akis Tsochatzopoulos, and Greece gave then a down payment of about four million Euros. The total cost was Euros 1.7 bill., and concerned the procurement of the HN for four submarines, of which the other three were to be built in the Skaramangas shipyards.
The inflexible stance of the Germans and their absurd requirements to deliver the problematic submarines has disturbed the Greek government, which declares determined not to throw at sea the capital of the Greek public for useless weapons systems.”
FONTE: Jornal ESTIA
12-10-2006 / pg. 3
“The Government is refusing to approve the acceptance of the submarines
The Government appears determined not to proceed with the acceptance of the new submarines, due to the problems which surfaced in the first one manufactured in Kiel, Germany.
The first even presented an inclination during its submersion, but also at sea, resulting in being considered inappropriate, but the manufacturers are stating that the problem can be solved and are asking for it to be accepted.
The Government, through the Ministry of National Defense, is stating that it is not willing to accept the submarine, and appears to be determined to breach the contract, if it’s not delivered without any problems.
Today, the representatives of the German companies will meet Pentagon officials who are stating that there are also problems with the contract signed by the PASOK Government, which includes commitments burdening the Greek side.
The contract was signed in 2000 and a down payment of Euro 400 mill. was given. The total budget reached Euro 1.7 bill. The submarines had never been manufactured and had been characterized as being of a new technology, during the signing of the contract.
However, the problems which surfaced are deemed serious.”
======
ELEFTHOROTYPIA / NEA
A serious construction problem came up on the 1st new submarine ordered from HN (Greek Navy) which is being built in KIEL by HDW. This problem has created an excessive delay on the delivery of the sub.
After the second sea trial in Kiel the submarine still shows a 30o inclination. At the first trial the Germans had mentioned that it was not a serious problem. According to information from HN, the problem has not been solved.
From the MOD (Ministry of Defense) it has been mentioned that the sub will not be received and considered delivered if it does not cover all the contractual specification. The Germans mentioned that the problem will be solved soon.
ETHNOS
Penalties of tens of Millions of Euros to HDW will be applied by the MOD because of the excessive delay of the delivery of the 1rst submarine type 214.
The new sub PAPANIKOLIS which has been built in Germany, during the sea trials presented an inclination of 450 which make unacceptable the delivery of the sub until the problem has been solved.
The total cost of the procurement of the 4 new submarines has reached 1.9 Billion Euros
Of curse this contract, as well as the contract for the MLM of the POSIDON class subs (875 M Euros) was the reason for the purchase of the Hellenic Shipyards by HDW, a shipyard which later was purchased itself by the THYSSENKRUPP GROUP
After the Greek election 2004, the President of the Hellenic Shipyards Mr. Paterakis was appointed by THYSEN ; he is a friend of Mr. Roussopoulos (Minister of Defense).
Now this government, through the MOD, has to negotiate with Mr. Paterakis for the problems created
Foram relatados problemas até no ISUS ...
Que tal o pessoal do DB debater no blog do Nassif ? Parece-me que ele está deixando o assunto vivo, trazendo-o a um novo público.
Salu2, alexandre.
Foi postado hoje: O submarino alemão, in http://luisnassif.blig.ig.com.br/
FONTE: Jornal ELEFTHEROTYPIA
12-10-2006 / pg. 7
“THE GERMANS are insisting for the new submarine despite its 6 problems”
“Os alemães insistem no novo submarino apesar dos seis problemas”
“Take it even if it tilts”…
A German-Greek war with already recorded side losses has erupted over the first new submarine, manufactured in the German shipyards of HDW, and according to the contract, should have been accepted by the Hellenic Navy on the 30th of last month.
As it ensues from the relevant documents, not only can’t the acceptance of the submarine take place due to technical problems, but the contract amounting to € 1.7 bill. also risks being breached, provided the Germans don’t accept today “that the recorded problems exist.” It has to be pointed out that Greece has already paid 80% of the contract, that is about € 1.3 bill.
As indicated in relatively official documents, the new submarine “Papanikolis” presents 6 critical problems:
1. Balance and behavior to waves. According to information, in a test of the submarine at sea with bad weather, the submarine tilted more than 50 degrees.
2. The air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. Namely, the submarine’s air-independent propulsion with current breaks down after cruising for some time.
3. Penetration of sea water in the hydraulic system.
4. Acoustic signature. While the submarine should be silent, it isn’t, resulting in it being easily tracked by the enemy.
5. In the “ISUS” system, which is the submarine’s combat system.
6. Attack periscope. If the submarine cruises at a greater speed than three miles per hour, the periscope trembles and cannot target.
They’re putting pressure
The German side is putting pressure with all means, so that the submarine be accepted by Greece, committing to solving the problems, in order to avoid the penal clauses which shall be paid by the German shipyard. It also seems that Germans officials told Greek officials that “the non-acceptance could even lead to the closing of the Skaramangas shipyards.”
Sources of the HNGS who were asked about the issue told us that “the life of the shipyards doesn’t depend on the submarines because there are also the frigates which, if needed, their procurement procedures will be speeded.”
Specifically for the tilting problem, technicians were assuring yesterday that “the situation of the first submarine in the German shipyards, but also of the second one, which is already being manufactured in the Skaramangas shipyards, under German management, is nonreversible.
The error springs from the fact that the Germans used the hull of the previous submarine type with some modifications, and on that they integrated the new systems, resulting on the weight not being able to be distributed in the right way.”
The German side, as at least sources of the Hellenic Ministry of Defense claim, sustains that there is no problem, and they insist that the Hellenic Navy should have accepted the submarine on September 30th, as set in the contract.
Its non-acceptance started a war which is mainly unfolding offstage, and to which are due the recent resignations of the commander of the submarines command, Captain Alexandros Madonis, and of the command’s official, Commander Minas Papadakis, according to those who know the issue.
Additionally, it is worth noting that yesterday morning a rumor spread regarding the resignation of the General Director of Armaments, Mr. Vassilakos, related to the issue, which was categorically refuted.”
FONTE: Jornal ADESMEFTOS TYPOS
12-10-2006 / pg. 6
“PASOK had ordered them” The government is not giving in to pressure
WE’RE NOT ACCEPTING the useless submarines!
For the first time, the Hellenic government is refusing to give in to pressure, to accept a weapons system which doesn’t comply with the conditions, while the responsibilities of the supplying company are big. The contract with the German company HDW, regarding the sale to Greece of four submarines is leading to a “wreck”, as the suppliers require that we accept and pay them for the submarines which present critical problems, while they refuse any written commitment to solve them.
An illustration of the way the manufacturing company HDW regards our country is the sentence told to the Greek responsible committee of the Hellenic Navy “Take them and if the captain’s good and listens to our directions, the submarine won’t… tilt when it cruises.”
Meeting
Today, always according to information, there will be a meeting of Pentagon officials with the Germans, as an ultimate effort of the latter to commit in order to solve the problems, and the contract to move ahead.
The first of the four German submarines (Type 214), which was manufactured in Kiel, and
should have been delivered at the end of 2005, presents a tilt reaching 36 degrees in
submersion and at cruise, depending on the wind and waves.
And unfortunately, this is not the only serious problem, which hasn’t yet been determined if due to an error in design or in shipbuilding of subject submarine.
The air-independent propulsion system, an advantage thanks to which it was selected by the Hellenic Navy, and the order was given, also presents a great malfunction.
It concerns a system which allows the submarine to remain hidden below the surface of the sea for a long time.
Its noisy propeller is also viewed as a serious problem, as it creates “hollows”, and makes it detectable by the enemy sonar, at great distances as well.
A malfunction is also noticed in the attack periscope, as well as in its hydraulic systems (!).
The order-procurement contract was signed at the beginning of 2000 by the then minister Akis Tsochatzopoulos, and Greece gave then a down payment of about four million Euros. The total cost was Euros 1.7 bill., and concerned the procurement of the HN for four submarines, of which the other three were to be built in the Skaramangas shipyards.
The inflexible stance of the Germans and their absurd requirements to deliver the problematic submarines has disturbed the Greek government, which declares determined not to throw at sea the capital of the Greek public for useless weapons systems.”
FONTE: Jornal ESTIA
12-10-2006 / pg. 3
“The Government is refusing to approve the acceptance of the submarines
The Government appears determined not to proceed with the acceptance of the new submarines, due to the problems which surfaced in the first one manufactured in Kiel, Germany.
The first even presented an inclination during its submersion, but also at sea, resulting in being considered inappropriate, but the manufacturers are stating that the problem can be solved and are asking for it to be accepted.
The Government, through the Ministry of National Defense, is stating that it is not willing to accept the submarine, and appears to be determined to breach the contract, if it’s not delivered without any problems.
Today, the representatives of the German companies will meet Pentagon officials who are stating that there are also problems with the contract signed by the PASOK Government, which includes commitments burdening the Greek side.
The contract was signed in 2000 and a down payment of Euro 400 mill. was given. The total budget reached Euro 1.7 bill. The submarines had never been manufactured and had been characterized as being of a new technology, during the signing of the contract.
However, the problems which surfaced are deemed serious.”
======
ELEFTHOROTYPIA / NEA
A serious construction problem came up on the 1st new submarine ordered from HN (Greek Navy) which is being built in KIEL by HDW. This problem has created an excessive delay on the delivery of the sub.
After the second sea trial in Kiel the submarine still shows a 30o inclination. At the first trial the Germans had mentioned that it was not a serious problem. According to information from HN, the problem has not been solved.
From the MOD (Ministry of Defense) it has been mentioned that the sub will not be received and considered delivered if it does not cover all the contractual specification. The Germans mentioned that the problem will be solved soon.
ETHNOS
Penalties of tens of Millions of Euros to HDW will be applied by the MOD because of the excessive delay of the delivery of the 1rst submarine type 214.
The new sub PAPANIKOLIS which has been built in Germany, during the sea trials presented an inclination of 450 which make unacceptable the delivery of the sub until the problem has been solved.
The total cost of the procurement of the 4 new submarines has reached 1.9 Billion Euros
Of curse this contract, as well as the contract for the MLM of the POSIDON class subs (875 M Euros) was the reason for the purchase of the Hellenic Shipyards by HDW, a shipyard which later was purchased itself by the THYSSENKRUPP GROUP
After the Greek election 2004, the President of the Hellenic Shipyards Mr. Paterakis was appointed by THYSEN ; he is a friend of Mr. Roussopoulos (Minister of Defense).
Now this government, through the MOD, has to negotiate with Mr. Paterakis for the problems created
Foram relatados problemas até no ISUS ...
Que tal o pessoal do DB debater no blog do Nassif ? Parece-me que ele está deixando o assunto vivo, trazendo-o a um novo público.
Salu2, alexandre.
"Em geral, as instituições políticas nascem empiricamente na Inglaterra, são sistematizadas na França, aplicadas pragmaticamente nos Estados Unidos e esculhambadas no Brasil"
Raro (exquisito) lo de problemas en el ISUS....
El ISUS 90 no es un prototipo, esta ya en uso en muchos submarinos....
Puede que se refiera a la integración de este en el SdA U-214...???.
El ISUS 90 no es un prototipo, esta ya en uso en muchos submarinos....
Puede que se refiera a la integración de este en el SdA U-214...???.
Chile, fértil provincia y señalada, de la región antártica famosa, que no ha sido por rey jamás regida, ni sus tierras y dominios sometida!!!.
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WalterGaudério
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Degan escreveu:Raro (exquisito) lo de problemas en el ISUS....
El ISUS 90 no es un prototipo, esta ya en uso en muchos submarinos....
Puede que se refiera a la integración de este en el SdA U-214...???.
Também não entendi essa. Talvez os gregos tenham solicitado mudanças de software e por isso esteja havendo problemas, mas... é só especulação.
Sinceramente o único motivo provável que eu enchergo p/ tal problema é a integração do ISUS 90 ao Raytheon Mk-48 m6AT grego.
Sds
Walter
Só há 2 tipos de navios: os submarinos e os alvos...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
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WalterGaudério
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alexandre lemos escreveu:Novo post do Nassif, no seu blog, acerca do problemático 214. Trata de matérias publicadas na imprensa grega.
Foi postado hoje: O submarino alemão, in http://luisnassif.blig.ig.com.br/
Foram relatados problemas até no ISUS ...
Que tal o pessoal do DB debater no blog do Nassif ? Parece-me que ele está deixando o assunto vivo, trazendo-o a um novo público.
Salu2, alexandre.
Alexandre boa tarde,
O problema é que o pessoal que está debatendo lá está apaixonado demais pelo tema e bastante desprovido de conhecimento técnico acerca do assunto.
Já percebi que está havendo uma manipulação meio maniqueísta da coisa. É o mesmo pessoal que na época do mensalão não postava uma mensagem, mas agora que são militares da MB na pseudo-berlinda, aproveitam para se tornar submarinistas de escol de uma hora para outra.
Ficou claro que, como sempre, tem um pessoalzinho aproveitando para malhar os militares, usando a desculpa do (bom)uso do dinheiro público(isso porquê o contrato nem foi assinado ainda).
É por essas que eu não me sinto motivado para pisar lá.
walter
Só há 2 tipos de navios: os submarinos e os alvos...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
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Túlio
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Por mim, se o Nassif quiser APRENDER algo sobre SdA, ele que venha postar aqui; se quiser ENSINAR, lá estará melhor, eis que em seu próprio espaço e SEM A CONCORRÊNCIA QUE TERIA AQUI! 
“Look at these people. Wandering around with absolutely no idea what's about to happen.”
P. Sullivan (Margin Call, 2011)
P. Sullivan (Margin Call, 2011)
cicloneprojekt escreveu:alexandre lemos escreveu:Novo post do Nassif, no seu blog, acerca do problemático 214. Trata de matérias publicadas na imprensa grega.
Foi postado hoje: O submarino alemão, in http://luisnassif.blig.ig.com.br/
Foram relatados problemas até no ISUS ...
Que tal o pessoal do DB debater no blog do Nassif ? Parece-me que ele está deixando o assunto vivo, trazendo-o a um novo público.
Salu2, alexandre.
Alexandre boa tarde,
O problema é que o pessoal que está debatendo lá está apaixonado demais pelo tema e bastante desprovido de conhecimento técnico acerca do assunto.
Já percebi que está havendo uma manipulação meio maniqueísta da coisa. É o mesmo pessoal que na época do mensalão não postava uma mensagem, mas agora que são militares da MB na pseudo-berlinda, aproveitam para se tornar submarinistas de escol de uma hora para outra.
Ficou claro que, como sempre, tem um pessoalzinho aproveitando para malhar os militares, usando a desculpa do (bom)uso do dinheiro público(isso porquê o contrato nem foi assinado ainda).
É por essas que eu não me sinto motivado para pisar lá.
walter
Mandou bem !
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pafuncio
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bugou, como sói acontecer diuturnamente.
Editado pela última vez por pafuncio em Qui Nov 30, 2006 9:19 pm, em um total de 1 vez.
"Em geral, as instituições políticas nascem empiricamente na Inglaterra, são sistematizadas na França, aplicadas pragmaticamente nos Estados Unidos e esculhambadas no Brasil"
-
pafuncio
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- Registrado em: Sex Set 09, 2005 2:38 am
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cicloneprojekt escreveu:
Alexandre boa tarde,
O problema é que o pessoal que está debatendo lá está apaixonado demais pelo tema e bastante desprovido de conhecimento técnico acerca do assunto.
Já percebi que está havendo uma manipulação meio maniqueísta da coisa. É o mesmo pessoal que na época do mensalão não postava uma mensagem, mas agora que são militares da MB na pseudo-berlinda, aproveitam para se tornar submarinistas de escol de uma hora para outra.
Ficou claro que, como sempre, tem um pessoalzinho aproveitando para malhar os militares, usando a desculpa do (bom)uso do dinheiro público(isso porquê o contrato nem foi assinado ainda).
É por essas que eu não me sinto motivado para pisar lá.
walter
Bem, o blog é por natureza democrático e dinâmico.
Há uns piadistas, uns néscios, uns bobos-alegres e uns anti-militaristas. Ouso dizer que boa parte desta fauna habita todos os blogs e fóruns de discussão. No mais das vezes, no geral esses caras que postaram no blog do Nassif aparentam ter menos conhecimentos de Defesa que um membro merdio e inexperiente do DB, como este que vos fala.
Posso estar enganados também, mas creio haver pelo menos um integrante do lobby francês (by Talharim), que desancou violentamente o U 214, rebatendo um post de um tal Alex. Foi o cara que pesquisou na imprensa grega os problemas do Papanikolis.
Ora, informação é algo que se aprende e se treina, digladiando-se e argumentando. Um bom exemplo é o próprio DB. O Degan é o catalisador dos debates, em especial pelos seus aparentes conhecimentos e defesa incondicional da suprema grife bélica, a saber, a variante CN (Chuck Norris).
Não fosse o Degan, por exemplo, creio que seríamos muito mais desconhecedores da realidade chilena, suas armas e efetivos.
Voltando ao assunto principal, creio que o blog de fato representa uma variante jornalística, dinâmica e de ampla divulgaçõa, mais do que o DB, que é fechado e relativamente isolado do grande público.
Ora, o próprio Nassif pode desconhecer muitas das coisas que saibamos e debatemos.
Mas o certo é uma janela na imprensa/blog foi aberta. O Nassif mesmo há pouco reativou o tópico do submarino alemão, quando já imaginava que o assunto ia morrer. Creio que fez isso não somente para atrair mais "ouvintes", mas porque não é um cara ingênuo e que gosta da parte tecnológica, geopolítica.
O Nassif é um cara respeitado e com boa inserção na imprensa, com um público ouvinte. Trouxe duas superdefinições, mais que rótulos, que bem questionam o pensamento único: o primado dos "cabeças de planilha" e a força dos "rentistas".
Sua cobertura no blog acerca do U 214 , aliás, foi bem mais isenta que a do Tão Gomes Pinto, puta velha (cara experiente) da imprensa.
Há um gancho, uma oportunidade aberta na imprensa, em sua forma mais dinÂmica e interativa, o blog.
Hora de um reconhecimento, objetivo.
Um cara como eu não tem condições de, no blog, argumentar com a profunidade e objetividade devidas.
Outrossim, há uma série de pessoas aqui que teriam todas as condições de melhor aprofundar a matéria, mostrando a questão da transferÊncia tecnológica, a continuidade da linha logística, o longo relacionamento com a indústria alemá de submarinos, o aço HY e a correlata siderúrgica da Thyssen, etc.
Para tanto, as pessoas não precisam revelar sua identidade, como muitos fazem aqui, ao adotar um nick e suprimir sua verdadeira qualificação individual.
Então, mais do que um apelo, julgo uma oportunidade de popularizar e trazer ao conhecimento de um número maior de pessoas o fascinante mundo da defesa, questionando-se, informando-se e superando os pretensos sabe-tudos chutadores, anti-militaristas, idiotas da objetividade, cabeças de planilha e quetais.
Não deixa de ser uma oportunidade de mostrar o amor ao Brasil ...
Sorry pela extensão do post, mas a Marinha merece.
Saudações, alexandre.
"Em geral, as instituições políticas nascem empiricamente na Inglaterra, são sistematizadas na França, aplicadas pragmaticamente nos Estados Unidos e esculhambadas no Brasil"
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Paisano
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Ou seja, seria ótimo que o Walter, o Luiz Botafoguense, a Dra. Koslova, dentre outros daqui do DB, fossem ao blog do Nassif para que, com conhecimento técnico que só eles têm, esclareçam ao público leigo que lê o citado blog, e ao próprio Nassif, acerca do U-214 que a Marinha pretende adquirir. 
Editado pela última vez por Paisano em Qui Nov 30, 2006 11:49 pm, em um total de 1 vez.