Enviado: Sex Fev 08, 2008 11:17 am
por Adriano
soultrain escreveu:Adriano,
A questão é que o F-22 adequa-se a um cenário que já não existe, esse é o argumento.
[[]]'s
Soultrain, não existe até que exista... (puxa... que frase estúpida...
)
Quero dizer que o cenário para o qual o F-22 foi planejado é o de que qualquer força aérea (inclusive China e Rússia) se prepara. Não existe actualmente, nos cenários que a USAF actua no momento, mas não quer dizer que não venha existir no futuro, num conflito com uma potência regional, por exemplo.
Eles apresentam o argumento de que o combate BVR com uso de IFF nunca se provou... bom... os Russos, Ingleses, Chineses, Indianos, etc, não estão preocupados com isso.
Pode ser que haja um problema com os IFF actuais e nos conflitos de baixa intensidade das últimas décadas isso se mostrasse um problema (danos coletarais). Mas o cenário para o qual o F-22 foi planejado é de alta intensidade, contra forças massivas, um cenário onde o pescoço do Tio Sam estaria em Jogo. Esse cenário nunca pode ser completamente descartado. É pra isso que existe o F-22, com ou sem um bom IFF.
Quanto ao alcance AIM-120C, comparado com o do Meteor ou R-77, a USAF diz que vc não pode disparar em algo que não detecta. Nesse caso, o AIM-120C poderá sim ser suficiente. É o que se diz a partir de todos os exercícios e simulações... mas como ter certeza... não sei...
Sei que os autores são "feras", mas não apresentam falhas técnicas do F-22.
Ou percebi mal?
Abraços!
Enviado: Sex Fev 08, 2008 6:20 pm
por soultrain
Bom adriano, a sua interpretação foi mais longe que a minha.
Em luz de relatos de oficiais superiores da RAF, postos a circular recentemente, o F-22 era detectado e abatido antes que pode-se lançar os seus AIM-120, reconheceram que os AIM-120D essa diferença seria mais esbatida, mas o Meteor terá sempre uma NEZ muito maior que o AIM-120D.
Isto significa o quê? que a furtividade do F-22 é relativa e em certas circunstâncias, além disso não terá a nova geração de misseis à sua disposição.
A pergunta dos autores é clara, previligou-se uma aeronave caríssima para um cenário que não existe hoje, a mesma não cumpre com o que foi vendido, em desfavor ao que é importante hoje no terreno para a força?
O futuro a Deus pertence, mas no presente a USAF está em dois teatros de guerra e tem necessidades que não foram supridas por causa de projectos como este.
[[]]'s
Enviado: Dom Fev 10, 2008 2:06 am
por Penguin
soultrain escreveu:Bom adriano, a sua interpretação foi mais longe que a minha.
Em luz de relatos de oficiais superiores da RAF, postos a circular recentemente, o F-22 era detectado e abatido antes que pode-se lançar os seus AIM-120, reconheceram que os AIM-120D essa diferença seria mais esbatida, mas o Meteor terá sempre uma NEZ muito maior que o AIM-120D.
Isto significa o quê? que a furtividade do F-22 é relativa e em certas circunstâncias, além disso não terá a nova geração de misseis à sua disposição.
A pergunta dos autores é clara, previligou-se uma aeronave caríssima para um cenário que não existe hoje, a mesma não cumpre com o que foi vendido, em desfavor ao que é importante hoje no terreno para a força?
O futuro a Deus pertence, mas no presente a USAF está em dois teatros de guerra e tem necessidades que não foram supridas por causa de projectos como este.
[[]]'s
Prezado Soultrain,
Por onde circularam essas informacoes de oficiais da RAF?
Nao cumpre com o que foi prometido? Esperava-se um bombardeiro?
FAs nao podem viver somente do presente. Precisam antecipar futuras ameacas. Ou pelo menos levar em conta diversos cenarios em seus planejamentos. Ai reside o problema. Na maioria das situacoes, estar preparado para os piores cenarios sai caro. Isso deve ser complicado para os EUA, assim como tem sido muito complicado para o Brasil.
O papel dissuassorio eh muito importante.
Resposta ao artigo postado anteriormente...
----------------------------------------------------------
F-22 is still what the U.S. needs
Jan. 20, 2008
By J.R. Labbe
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
Gordon England blinked.
The deputy defense secretary announced Thursday that the Pentagon will request funding for four additional F-22 Raptors next year, backtracking ever so slightly from earlier indications that he wanted to begin phasing out production of the fifth-generation fighter after this year.
This is good news, and not just for the more than 1,800 Lockheed Martin employees who build the plane's midfuselage at the company's Fort Worth plant. America needs this plane, not just in theaters of combat but patrolling the skies overhead.
England's announcement, although welcome, still falls short of what he really needs to say:
"I agree with Congress and the Air Force. The F-22 is this nation's only fifth-generation fighter in full production. Ending the program at this stage would be a boneheaded move for both defense of the homeland and our ability to dominate the airspace over our global allies, interests and deployed troops."
OK, so no one expects England to say "boneheaded," but that's what he is being.
Last month, 98 federal lawmakers -- including Sens. John Cornyn and Kay Bailey Hutchison and area Reps. Kay Granger, Kenny Marchant, Michael Burgess, Joe Barton, Chet Edwards and Pete Sessions -- signed two identically worded letters to Defense Secretary Robert Gates, urging him to continue procurement of the F-22.
Those letters referenced three independent studies commissioned by the department that reportedly recommended the Air Force should up its request to more than 220 Raptors.
For the record, the Air Force has said it needs 381 of these awesome war birds.
Unfortunately, England refuses to release those taxpayer-funded studies, which were conducted during the quadrennial defense review. The speculation is that the reports don't track with the department's standing request for 183.
England defends that viewpoint by saying the Pentagon should buy more F-35 Lightning IIs, which has models for three services -- Air Force, Navy and Marines -- rather than concentrating investments in a single service by buying more F-22s.
That kind of either/or scenario could best be described as penny-wise but pound-foolish. The United States needs both.
The F-35 is a magnificent plane. Its projected ability to carry out missions against fixed or mobile ground targets is eight times more effective than legacy aircraft. Its air-to-air combat abilities will be second only to the F-22's.
But production on the F-35 doesn't really crank into high gear until 2014 or 2015. The F-22 is ready to go -- today.
Civilians hate to think about issues like "first-look, first-shot, first-kill" capabilities, but that's exactly how the tools of war must be evaluated.
The F-22, with its speed, maneuverability and stealth, provides just those advantages. It is the ideal first-day fighter against enemy air forces. It blows the screens off the porch and kicks down the doors on Day 1 to make sure that nothing jumps up to contest air superiority.
The anti-F-22 voices claim that the Raptor is an aircraft for yesterday's wars -- that its effectiveness in air combat and in neutralizing surface-to-air threats is irrelevant when the enemy is a militant group that uses IEDs and not airplanes and missiles to wreak havoc.
But in the zeal to respond to the tactics of today's enemy, the United States can't be too quick to dismiss the potential for a well-funded nation-state to turn into tomorrow's adversary.
Russia and China are sinking lots of rubles and yuans into militarization.
The Russians are expected to put their fifth-generation fighter jet, the Sukhoi T-50, into service by 2010. And they are getting an assist in the plane's development from India. The Chinese are developing the Jianjiji 12 fighter. It's expected to enter service around 2013.
If history is any lesson, these "allies" will be willing to sell the goods to anyone with the bucks to buy them. Americans should find no comfort in that fact that they are cozying up to the likes of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez -- not exactly a fan of the United States.
England's decision buys the bipartisan supporters of the Raptor time to help the deputy secretary understand the wisdom of increasing procurement instead of phasing out production.
One of my favorite sayings is, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck." The F-22 ensures that America's fight against any hostile air power will be very one-sided.
jrlabbe@star-telegram.com
Jill "J.R." Labbe is deputy editorial page editor of the Star-Telegram . 817-390-7599
Re: Raptor News
Enviado: Dom Abr 13, 2008 9:36 pm
por soultrain
Raptor’s solo challenge
It’s sim to single seat for younger pilots training on F-22
By Jack Weible
February 25, 2008
Like most next-generation aircraft, flight training for the U.S. Air Force’s F-22 fighter has been limited to the more-experienced pilots during the aircraft’s formative years, a recognition of the aircraft’s price tag and the need for a steady hand at the throttle in case of problems in flight. But after four years of training those mature pilots, the Raptor program is preparing its first basic training course for four lieutenants, three of whom only recently completed the fighter fundamentals course.
That quartet of young officers — “the best of the best” picked from a flock of pilots all wanting to fly the single-seat Raptor — will move in March to Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., where all non-operational F-22 instruction is conducted, to begin seven months of training. They’ll be part of the 43rd Fighter Squadron that is responsible for providing aircrew training for the Raptor, for which 112 have been built to date by lead contractor Lockheed Martin, and 105 delivered to the Air Force.
After leaving the “B course,” the F-22 qualified pilots will move on to operational squadrons around the U.S. that host Raptors: Langley Air Force Base, Va.; Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska; and Holloman Air Force Base, N.M., in the near future
It’s an important transition phase for the Air Force, which has orders for 183 aircraft but badly wants more to fill a need to be ready for future threats and offset growing problems with its aging F-15 fleet. Discussions have begun on Capitol Hill for 20 additional Raptors, but there are no assurances that lawmakers will provide the funds and even then, F-22 proponents say, the Air Force needs many more than that.
The B course, about twice as long as the transition training courses going on at Tyndall since 2004, faces the unique issue of teaching new students with relatively few flying hours in a fighter how to prepare themselves for their first flight in the actual Raptor — a single-seat aircraft. Unlike the F-16 and F-15 training programs, there are no two-seat trainer aircraft with an instructor in the back seat for the Raptor, leaving an inherently higher risk to students on their first flights.
Air Force officials, however, say the training syllabus has taken that factor into account for the B course.
“We’re going to have a brand new concept of engines, of flight controls [for those students]; all that stuff is new, so, obviously, we’ve cut those and spread them out,” said Lt. Col. David Krumm, 43rd Fighter Squadron commander. “So it’s more academic classes, more tests, and what you’ll find is we have a lot more simulators, as well. In particular, we have about 50 percent more simulators than in the F-15 or F-16 course.”
Those simulators are an Egress Procedures Trainer to learn cockpit ejection and canopy separation procedures, a lower-fidelity Weapons Tactics Trainer used in consort with classroom instruction and, most important, a Full Mission Trainer built to resemble an actual Raptor cockpit and which offers a 360-degree field of vision. All were designed by L-3 Link Simulation and Training and produced by Boeing, which designs the courseware for the curriculum.
The four Raptor trainees also will have taken an F-22 pre-qualification course at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., before Tyndall to fly F-16s so they can get familiarized on intricate maneuvers such as aerial refueling and takeoff and landing, Krumm said, as well as being exposed to nine G forces that even high-fidelity simulators cannot replicate.
Gen. William Looney, commander of Air Education and Training Command (AETC), which oversees F-22 training, said the syllabus is sound. “I’m very confident that we have done everything we can to mitigate the risk that you have of putting a young pilot into a very demanding and challenging environment; i.e. flying the F-22, realizing that every time he flies that airplane, he will be solo. The first time he goes to the tanker to get gas will be solo. The first time he does it at night will be solo. The first time he pulls nine Gs in the F-22, he’ll be solo.”
F-22 transition training at Tyndall has been of shorter duration, about three to four months. When it first took shape, only the most experienced pilots could join the program, and many had up to 1,500 hours of fighter experience. That’s down to 600 to 700 hours, and “we’ve had pilots with as few as 350 hours,” Krumm said.
Generally, 65 to 75 pilots undergo training each year at Tyndall, and usually three classes are going on simultaneously, Krumm said. A beginning class engages in academics given by Lockheed Martin personnel (the company provides F-22 and F-15 training at the base). “Academics for us in the Raptor consist of academic lectures, electronic workbooks, hands-on in the Weapons Tactics Trainer [WTT], which are not quite high-fidelity, and then the actual FMTs, Full Mission Trainers,” he said.
That goes on for a little more than a month when students are not on the flight line.
A second class is usually on the flight line, just beginning the first stages of flying. “That class is going through the transition rides, the advanced handling maneuvers, the basic flying maneuvers,” Krumm said. “Then we usually have a senior class on the flight line that is usually in the December training phase, on the on-range, beyond-visual-range training. It’s like graduate level.”
Coupled with that, Tyndall also routinely does its own instructor training. “And we’ll also intermix sometimes senior officer classes where we train commanders of groups and wings to fly the F-22,” Krumm said.
Unlike, say, the F-15 syllabus, F-22 training routinely mixes classroom lectures with training on the WTT and moves students in and out. Several WTTs can be linked for single, double and four-ship training.
“They’ll sit and drill using a WTT as a part-task trainer that’s high fidelity in switches, high fidelity in avionics and lower fidelity in many of the other areas,” such as lacking an ejection seat, realistic side panels and an out-the-window view that’s only straight ahead, said Dean Proffitt, pilot training systems manager at Boeing and a former F-16 pilot. “But it’s a very good trainer for the purpose, and that’s reinforcing the learning objective and doing a group environment.”
From there, it’s on to the FMT, which features Link’s SimuSphere visual display for 360-degree field of view. The pilot sits in a full-scale, fully equipped cockpit that’s set inside a partial geodesic dome with nine-channel display. The FMTs can be networked in groups of four at each training site.
The FMT visuals are “a bright system,” said Leo Rickmers, senior program manager for F-22 training at Link. “The attention to detail in the software is, I think, significant in that, because of the nature of the Raptor and its mission, we put a lot more attention into the threat environment so that the fidelity of what the pilot sees is much higher. We’ve put a significant amount of work into that over the past few years, and we do work with the various commands in the Air Force to help provide us with real-world data.”
The in-and-out classroom/simulator training is unique to the F-22, Proffitt said. The F-16 had a cockpit familiarization trainer that was “essentially a switchology trainer where you learned your initial procedures and so forth,” then proceeded to a single-ship simulator, which, “while it was tied to the academics, wasn’t an integral back and forth between the classroom and the WTT classroom and the classroom FMT.”
Krumm said that although Tyndall relies much more on simulators for Raptor training than in other aircrew programs, pilots and instructors view the FMTs as mostly up to the task. “This is a high-fidelity sim that is worthy of the airplane.” But he added that F-22 training brings some challenges even the FMT cannot replicate. Air refueling, for example. “Our simulator is not a motion simulator, so the high fidelity that’s required — in particular, we call it a high-gain environment when your muzzles and your inputs are rapidly changing because you’re flying very close to airplanes, like air refueling or flying close formation — that’s very difficult to replicate. It’s not the sim’s fault, it’s our human brain where our sensory features, our ears and our eyes, don’t match,” Krumm said.
Pilots in such situations might get the feeling that “I pulled up, I didn’t feel anything, I need to pull up a little more,” he added. “You can get yourself into a [pilot-induced] oscillation” and crash the plane.
Overall, however, “we’re very happy” with the simulators, he said. “As a matter of fact, we use the simulators not only here, but also the Air Combat Simulator up in Marietta, Ga. It is a series of four simulators that Lockheed Martin built, initially to help test the F-22 in its capabilities, but also its fidelity as far as the ability to replicate threats.”
Krumm said he hasn’t heard complaints from pilots about being limited to simulators in early training. “Obviously, the aircraft is much different than some of the legacy airplanes such as the F-15. Our academic and simulation is extensive but very well thought out, and it works very well.”
When it comes time for trainees to leave the sim and enter the actual Raptor cockpit, program officials have planned carefully, because there is no back-seat security by way of an instructor. The first time pilots strap in, an instructor on a headset goes through the entire ground operations procedures during which the student starts the aircraft, runs through the checks and then shuts down the engine without the aircraft ever leaving the ground.
Different from other fighters, new Raptor pilots do their “emergency procedures and evaluations” in a simulator as part of their pre-flight check ride. “Prior to actually flying, you have to pass your check ride in a simulator. Once you’ve demonstrated that, then we allow you to come over to the flight line,” Krumm said.
“Because of AETC, we spend a lot of time working emergencies procedures and malfunctions,” Link’s Rickmers added. “And that’s a key element that the guys at Langley don’t care so much about, but the guys at Tyndall really emphasize because it’s part of their curriculum and the way they want to focus their students.”
Pilots need four flights in a Raptor before they qualify for instrument qualification. Although the F-22 lacks a second seat, Tyndall has two aircraft on base, and an instructor is always nearby in the second F-22. “I am monitoring the student from the other airplane during all the phases of flight,” said Krumm, who has been squadron commander for a year and a half.
Weather is regarded as an essential element of training in the simulator. “We’ll dial up weather, as much as we want. And during the first four flights, we actually require that be in the VMC, Visual Meteorological Conditions,” he said, where the pilot is responsible for seeing other air traffic.
Flying in the actual aircraft, pilots have no restrictions about flying through clouds. “In our case, they’re qualified down to the 700-foot ceiling with at least two miles of visibility,” Krumm added. “As long as the weather is better than that, we can go out and fly.”
Preparing the four lieutenants — one of whom already is an instructor pilot — for the B course has meant modifying the curriculum: more course work on how the engines work, for example. And pilots going through the Air Force’s fighter fundamentals course now experience an F-22 centrifuge in their centrifuge training. That, combined with the pre-qualification course at Luke and the electronic workbook/classroom instruction/ WTT/FMT rotation at Tyndall, should overcome any inexperience issues, Krumm said.
“The student gets it four different times and he’s able to apply that very quickly. So the knowledge is not just book knowledge or PowerPoint knowledge, there’s actual application in the WTT and the FMT,” he said. “Very quickly, we really found that reinforced the learning.”
If all goes well, the four Raptor trainees — who were selected from a larger group of eight nominated by the fighter wings — will graduate in September or early October and then go on to operational squadrons at Langley, Elmendorf and Holloman.
“Then we’ll take three to four months to retool the syllabus to incorporate the lessons learned that we have,” Krumm said. “We know we’re pretty close, but after this group of four goes through, we may need to add stuff here. There may be stuff to take away, too.
F-22 training also is advancing in other ways. The program is slated to join the service’s Distributed Missions Operations in June 2009, Rickmers said, and Raptor pilots in operational squadrons then will be able to network on upgraded FMTs to others training on F-15E and AWACS simulators, for example.
Training has advanced by leaps and bounds from the early days of 1997 and 1998 when, according to Pam Valdez, Boeing F-22 sustainment director, the company was doing early training of Raptor pilots from Boeing, Lockheed Martin and the Air Force at test sites at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., and Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.
“We did that, of course, without trainers,” Valdez said. “We used aircraft lavatories as our training assets back then, and the aircraft was still very much in design. We were updating courseware every time we talked.” å
Re: Raptor News
Enviado: Qui Mai 08, 2008 11:47 pm
por Penguin
Artigo que finalmente explica a questao do data link do Raptor.
Manter-se discreto e usar data link nao eh tarefa facil, se o adversario esta bem equipado com EW avancado. Isso afeta o Raptor e qualquer outro caca.
Raptors Chat
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 5/7/2008 9:31 AM CDT
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 425044e78f
One drawback to trying to be invisible in the radio-frequency spectrum is that attempting to transmit anything in RF is a bit like being a black-clad ninja with a blinking LED on his head. That's why - in current service - the only communications transmitters on the F-22 are the voice radio and a special datalink that talks only to other F-22s.
This problem is being addressed - slowly and expensively - as outlined in DTI for December (page 40). Another step was reported in a recent Lockheed Martin release, describing tests of the
Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) developed by Rockwell Collins during the Joint Expeditionary Force Experiment 08 (JEFX 08) exercise at Nellis AFB in April.
Modified with the datalink hardware and new touch-screen displays, the F-22s used their electronic warfare suites to gather information and transferred imagery and text messages to the ground-based combined air operations center (CAOC).
However, the release headline's claim that "operations.. gain new intelligence and surveillance capability with [the] F-22" is over-egging it a bit.
An operational advanced datalink is part of Increment 3.2 of the F-22 modernization program, and won't be installed on test aircraft until 2011. Field retrofits could start in 2014.
Re: Raptor News
Enviado: Sex Mai 09, 2008 9:58 am
por Penguin
PRick escreveu:jacquessantiago escreveu:Artigo que finalmente explica a questao do data link do Raptor.
Manter-se discreto e usar data link nao eh tarefa facil, se o adversario esta bem equipado com EW avancado. Isso afeta o Raptor e qualquer outro caca.
Raptors Chat
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 5/7/2008 9:31 AM CDT
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 425044e78f
One drawback to trying to be invisible in the radio-frequency spectrum is that attempting to transmit anything in RF is a bit like being a black-clad ninja with a blinking LED on his head. That's why - in current service - the only communications transmitters on the F-22 are the voice radio and a special datalink that talks only to other F-22s.
This problem is being addressed - slowly and expensively - as outlined in DTI for December (page 40). Another step was reported in a recent Lockheed Martin release, describing tests of the
Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) developed by Rockwell Collins during the Joint Expeditionary Force Experiment 08 (JEFX 08) exercise at Nellis AFB in April.
Modified with the datalink hardware and new touch-screen displays, the F-22s used their electronic warfare suites to gather information and transferred imagery and text messages to the ground-based combined air operations center (CAOC).
However, the release headline's claim that "operations.. gain new intelligence and surveillance capability with [the] F-22" is over-egging it a bit.
An operational advanced datalink is part of Increment 3.2 of the F-22 modernization program, and won't be installed on test aircraft until 2011. Field retrofits could start in 2014.
Não só datalink, mas principalmente o radar ou qualquer situação de emissão de sinais eletrônicos, o F-117 ou o B-2 não usam radar, operam em silêncio, algo bem diverso de caças multifuncionais.
[ ]´s
Mais ou menos...
No caso do F-22, estão desenvolvendo uma nova tecnologia (que por sinal tem sido custosa e lenta) para contornar este problema (Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT).
Qt a radares...
"O B-2 usa um radar AN/APQ-181 de conceito LPI (low probability of intercept) ou baixa probabilidade de ser interceptado. Este radar de abertura sintética participa dos processos de lançamento de armas, seguimento do terreno para uma navegação e baixa altitude segura. Em 2010 deve ser entregue um novo radar de varredura ativa AESA que deve substituir o AN/APQ-181."
http://aircombatcb.blogspot.com/2006/06 ... deiro.html
Como o fabricante apresenta o radar do B-2:
"
The world's stealthiest radar, the APQ-181 is a low probability of intercept, all-weather system that enables the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber to penetrate the most sophisticated air defenses.
The AN/APQ-181 radar system enables the unique combination of stealth, range, payload, and precision weapons delivery capabilities of the U.S. Air Force B-2 Spirit stealth bomber. The radar currently employs a passive, two-dimensionally scanned antenna, with a mode suite that provides detection and precision engagement of time-critical targets.
In 1991, the B-2 team (including Hughes, now Raytheon) was awarded the Collier Trophy, widely considered the most prestigious U.S. aviation award. The award was in recognition of the "design, development, production, and flight testing of the B-2 aircraft, which has contributed significantly to America's enduring leadership in aerospace and the country's future national security."
As part of the radar modernization program (RMP), Raytheon has designed, built and delivered an active array, based upon an advanced T/R module design offering improved performance and reliability. The RMP is currently in flight testing of the new antenna and will enter production in summer 2007, which will replace all the electronically scanned arrays currently in the fleet with the new active arrays. The new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) provides the stepping stone to additional future radar enhancements."
Re: Raptor News
Enviado: Sex Mai 09, 2008 10:17 am
por alb
Na minha opinião de leigo, Os caças furtivos são a melhor opção para a função de ataque,(como provavelmente farão alguns paises do europa com o f 35 e os Americanos com o f 117 e o B2)) opção que já está comprovada no campo de batalha. Claro que, como foi citado, não se pode atirar no que não se pode ver..., mas duvido de exercícios onde um raptor abate uma esquadrilha toda de f15 ou f16 por conta de não ser detectato, em combate real seria diferente, claro que um caça furtivo, com apoio de uma rede de radares terrestres e/ou aereos leva grande vantagem, mas sem apoio..., não sei não...
A questão é a seguinte, sera que vale o Investimento de ter um caça especializado em superioridade aerea furtivo?
não seria o f 35 a plataforma ideal para os americanos???
