Fórum Defesa Brasil

Carlos Mathias escreveu:Se fosse um F-15, eu quase aposto que ninguém reclamaria do preço, que mesmo pros americanos é muito caro.

Lembro de umas figuras daqui dando pulinhos de alegria quando o Saito visitou uma base/sucataria cheia de F-15 usados...
Era um tal de F-15BRi prá lá, F-16BRi prá cá, F-35BRi for-the-world-and-beyond acolá...

Hmmmmm, quem será que estava dando aqueles pulinhos?????

Benke escreveu:BRASIL
TÔ PRA TI
by francorp (o biquini)

Se bem que dava para combinar a paião com a necessidade com o F-15 SE, mas ai é outra historia...

Rafale programme history, the genesis :

1) The failure of the cooperation, time-line :

Sources : "Rafale, la suprématie aérienne", André Bréand, ETAI, 2005
Air & Cosmos Hors-Série "Rafale : tous ses atouts", 2006
"Un demi siècle d'aéronautique en France : LES AVIONS MILITAIRES", COMAERO, Centre des hautes études de l'armement, 2007


1972 : Though it's also the begining of the Mirage 2000 programme, the Armée de l'Air (a.k.a. AdA,or FAF for French Air Force) begins studies for the specifications of a multirole aircraft to enter service by the late 90's.

After the Mirage F2, the G8, there is an ongoing programme nammed ACF (Avion de Combat Futur), stopped in late 1975 though the prototype was being built. Too costly for France alone.

programme ANGE (Avion Nouvelle GEneration) NO DETAILS FOUND


Western Germany and Great Britain have common interests, in addition, at the time, it was believed that a joint programme would lower the unit cost (economies of scale) and that such a programme would be harder to stop (inertia of several countries).

Mid-1970's : (1976) The Snecma begins feasibility studies for a engine powering such a fighter.


1977 : The ministries of Defense from the three countries decide to team up for the task of defining the specifications of a common aircraft. At the time, GB and Germany want to replace its ageing Phantoms, while France want to replace its Jaguars, and later, the Mirage 2000. While everyone agree for an air superiority platform, France also needs a more stringent air-to-ground capability compared to the others.

June 1977 : during Paris Air Show at Le Bourget, Dassault Breguet learns that Germany has asked MBB (Messerschmitt Bölkow Blohm) to study the feasibility of a fighter for early 90s. Thus, they pay them a visit, so as to check whether a cooperation is possible or not.
Meanwhile, the Panavia structure still exists, and the nations are working (without France) on the European Combat Fighter (ECF).

End of 1977 : the ministries ask the Head Quarters to look for a cooperation so as to develop an aircraft which was to enter service in early 90's.

1978 : Great Britain changes its requirements. The Phantoms are now to be replaced by the new Tornado ADV. This means that the new fighter would have to replace the Jaguars. This partially fits the French requirements, but the French remind GB that they need a multi-role fighter, and that the air-to-air capability can't be dismissed. This is the first time problems arise : the three HQ are about to agree on the airframe, but they want three different weapon systems.

March 10, 1978 : Mirage 2000 first flight.

The Marine National (a.k.a. MN or French Navy) also takes interest in the programme. The MN, the AdA and Dassault Breguet commence working together on such a programme.

October 30, 1978 : France orders a feasibility study for a strike and air superiority fighter to Dassault Breguet, this is the ATS 92.
Just after, on December 20, France orders the same, but this time for a navalised fighter (ACM).

1979 : the ONERA begins studies in aerodynamics for an evolved fighter. This is the programme "Rapace", all about tridimensional transsonic high-angles aerodynamics, digital modeling, aerodynamic flows, and high alpha flight mechanic. Those studies benefit from the Mirage 2000 programme, but demonstrate the limits of the analog FBW, and thus, Dassault will create, on the bench, a digital FBW Mirage 2000 to help.

March 1979 : Mirage 4000 first flight. Too heavy, too costly for France.

September 24, 1979 : the DGA (Délégué Général pour l'Armement : military procurements manager) asks Dassault Breguet to consult Germany and Great Britain for a cooperation.

October 1979 : in Bruxelle, the Programme Independant European Group (Groupe Européen de programmes Indépendant -GEIP) now examines three studies, AST 403, TKF 90 and ACT 92 to as to sort the problems of a eventual cooperation.

This results in the creation of the ECA study (European Combat Aircraft) which covers the airframe, the powerplant and the weapon system for the three countries.

Though Great Britain proposes conventional tail design, the agreed solution is a twin engined, delta winged with canard foreplanes and FBW design.

But several problems arise :
weights between 8.5t and 12.5t ;
powerplant : GB want a RB.199 derivative, France wants the M88, and Germany wants the existing GE404 ;
requirements : GB wants an air-to-ground/recon platform with secondary air-to-air capabilities, Germany wants the contrary, and France wants Air-to-air, air-to-ground, recon and nuclear strike capabilties without preference.

However, the cooperation goes on, and the partners agree for 2 prototypes (first flight mid-1984), 12 pre-series aircraft, and first serie delivery in 1991. No less than 900 fighters are to be built. Components are to be built from a single source, but with assembly lines in each country, and different flight test centers for different systems according to the final customer.

March 14, 1980 : the ACT 92 (Avion de Combat Tactique) feasibility study is funded. .

May 1980 : In Hanover, MBB shows the TKF90, and GB shows the P106 and P110 (check).

Dassault Breguet reveals its projects for a highly maneuverable aircraft for the 90's with two mock-up.
The aircraft would be initially propelled by the GE404, then the M88 at 7.5t of thrust later improved to 8.5t. A navalized variant would be feasible, and if ordered soon enough, production could begin in 1993. Dassault pushes GB and Germany to join, first on May 30, 1980, then in February, 1981. Because Dassault begins to feel that the project is impossible, they accelerate the proposition, and suggests that the programme must be led by a single leader among the three countries. Great Britain refuses, while Germany hesitate and show an intermediate position.

Late February 1981, in Munich, the three partners still agree on the fact that the fighter will have to use a singletye of engine and common systems to lower the price. But because of the hurdles, the three governments renounce to the ECA.

France is alone.

In December 1981: the Panavia partners announce that they will build a fighter without France. However, Germany stays in touch with France.

A German/French cooperation will last up to April 1983 : while France still want what was to become its omnirole fighter, Germany plans to use Alphajet for light air-to-ground missions, Tornado for deep strike, and a new relatively light and cheap fighter for pure air-superiority (which really looked like what France need -in terms of airframe/weight-, but with less capabilities -no air-to-ground-). The cooperation thus envisage two possibilities, GE404 and M88.

With a programme led in a similar way to the Alpha Jet programme, French and German start to organize parity in work share. But when MBB asked for money for this programme, the German governement required that MBB also keep in touch with GB and Italy for an alternate solution (in addition, Dornier is working with Northrop).

Two programmes for this cooperation. The first one would have been a 6-tons single engined fighter, much better than the Mirage 2000, powered by a 11tons M88, able to compete against Lavi and Gripen for export countries such as Brasil, Yougoslavia, India, entirely funded by Dassault. The other being a common twin-engine fighter.
But neither the German government nor the Luftwaffe want to take risk, and MBB then ask Dassault to fund entirely the common project instead of the light export fighter.

As Dassault has already funded the Mirage 4000, they have no money left, and have to refuse. The cooperation project is in trouble.

Then, the British see that the German/French cooperation is in trouble, and at Farnborough, in 1982, they expose a full scale mock up of the ACA (Agile Combat Aircraft), funded by the British governement, BAe, MBB, and Aeritalia.

October 1982 : GB announces the revival of the Panavia organization. In response, the French MoD (ministry of Defense) Charles Hernu launches the programme ACT (Avion de Combat Tactique) which is to enter service between 1995 and 2000, and decides the development of the demonstrator ACX, later renamed "Rafale".

But France still would like to join the ACA programme. Great Britain and Italia do not agree, but Germany soften the relations.

April 13, 1983, Charles Hernu decides the beginning of initial ACX studies, and on July 22, he orders the demonstrator.

The four nations keep trying to cooperate... December 16, 1983, another agreement (OEST : Outline European Staff Target)... 800 aircraft, twin-engine, very agile, 4.5tons of payload. But again, GB wants a 12 to 13 tons aircraft, Germany wants 9tons, and France wants 8.5tons.

In Roma, in 1984, the weight is fixed at 9.5tons, with a 8.5t to 8.8tons engine. The RB199 was rejected. This could have been perfect for the M88, but Roll-Royce pushes for a new X-40 prototype (which will be the EJ200).

Great Britain and France also keep moaning. GB doesn't want too much partners, and France having seen what happened with Panavia (a catastrophe in the French point of view) wants to designate a leader for each of the three main parts (airframe, engine, weapon and navigation system).

While GB is about to agree for the Dassault leadership on the airframe, they expect to have the engine leadership.

But this would put the Snecma at stake. France isn't ready to sacrifice a single part of its know-how, in addition, a five partners cooperation, according to Dassault, would have led to a costlier solution compared to what France is capable to do on its own.

1985 : with the EST agreement, the weight is increased by 250kg.

In Turin, in August 1985, Charle Hernu announces that France leave the EFA group, because "we pay an aircraft for its weight, and the Armée de l'Air do not want a aircraft weighting more than 9 tons". The programme would have been too costly, in terms of unit price, but also for the French industry (no enough counter-parts, they already had enormous knowledge, a lot to loose, only a few to learn).

Later, between 1987 and 88, France also entered talks with Belgium, but again, it failed.

2) Rafale A and after.
to be continued...

Santiago escreveu:Cronologia do Programa Rafale (por TMOR: http://rafale.freeforums.org/genesis-wh ... e-t58.html ):

Rafale programme history, the genesis :
...
1972 : Though it's also the begining of the Mirage 2000 programme, the Armée de l'Air (a.k.a. AdA,or FAF for French Air Force) begins studies for the specifications of a multirole aircraft to enter service by the late 90's.
...
to be continued...