Moderadores: Glauber Prestes, Conselho de Moderação
midnight escreveu:Patton escreveu:
Fala serio rapaz. Nao tem nada no Eurofighter que o F-35 nao pode fazer melhor. De fato Turquia comprou o F-35 em resposta aos EFs no Grecia. O "Tiffy" maul conseque vencer os velhos F-15Cs.
Creio que esteja equivocado, se você disser que o F-22 faria melhor, entrariamos em acordo, mas o F-35 não é mais avião que o EF-2000.
Claro….si te dejas llevar por los mitos y falsedades…. Rolling Eyes
Pésimo es un sistema obsoleto IRST, ni comparable con el sistema EO DAS del F-35…o su radar AESA real y completo, o su real capacidad stelath
o tienen contraparte de USA o se integran, pues no son el avión.1) La capacidad de llevar carga internamente es la que permite misiones quirúrgicas verdaderamente stealth…alternativa que solo el F-22 tiene, y NADIE más.
2) La carga completa no stelath sigue dándole la flexibilidad que el EFA no tiene
3) La velocidad crucero del EFA, además de ser muy cuestionable, solo agrega alcance en misiones de intercepción a gran altura.
4) La velocidad crucero estándar, tasa de ascensión, etc….hay que demostrarlo…
5) El CAESAR es un sistema mucho menos desarrollado que un APG-77
6) El Meteor y otros por el estilo,
Amigo…el EFA no es más que un F-15 europeo caro…nada más…
Mucho mas, Tan solo el F22 consigue superarlo. El resto? por detras.
Citação:
Un F16 sea cual sea no es comparable a los Efa.
Ya hemos visto que es infinitamente más costo eficiente
Pero si ni siquiera pasa de ser un prototipo, cuando sea un avion de verdad los demas ya tendran de todo y mas.
1Eso es falso. Quiza sobre Afganistan donde no hay radares. Ademas de que te vale esa supuesta
capacidad stealth si tu vas con el radar apagado? No radar= no avion.
Su capacidad stealth es pura publicidad indemostrada.
2Su carga es irrisible, interna y externa, es un aparato de ataque. Necesita proteccion.
(de todas formas no sufra. U.k italia y España tendran ambos modelos de avion paracomparar mucho mejor que usted y yo.)
3 Su velocidad de crucero y supercrucero esta ampliamente demostrada. Las misiones de interceptacion
son basicas. Evitar que el enemigo entre....
4 El Captor ya pone en apuros al Apg 77, imaginese en Caesar...
Pues entonces un F22 segun usted es una basura volante por lo caro que es...Es mas. Todo lo que no sean F16 son poco costo eficiente.
Da igual M2000 que Su 30 etc etc etc.
Si no son F16 no vale
old escreveu:Patton escreveu:old escreveu:Bolovo escreveu:Sniper escreveu:old escreveu:Sisi.. un Raptor dandose vueltas por Oriente... Seria tal el downgraded del avion que probablemente ni despegara..
El problema es que un F35 es muy poco avion para sustituir a sus F15 y un Raptor dudo mucho que los americanos lo vendan asi como asi (aunque el comprador tenga muchos $$).
No obstante yo tampoco veo Thypoons en el pais del sol naciente..aunque nunca se sabe..
Não há dúvidas que Eurofighter é um caça estupendo, mas não acrescentaría tanto assim ao que os F-15 já oferece ao Japão.
O passo natural para o Japão é o F-22 !
Ou o F-35.
Eu pelo menos tenho certeza que verei alguns F-35B voando num LHD made-in-Japan.
F35 lo dudo mucho. Tal vez como avion de 2ª linea o ataque, pero nunca como aparato de superioridad aerea para el Japon. Y es hay donde entraria el Eurofigter.
No creo que USA ceda sus F22 a corto plazo, tal vez dentro de 10/15/20 años..tal vez..
Estoy de acuerdo en que quiza sus futuros LHD dispongan de escuadrones de F35;)
Saludos
Fala serio rapaz. Nao tem nada no Eurofighter que o F-35 nao pode fazer melhor. De fato Turquia comprou o F-35 em resposta aos EFs no Grecia. O "Tiffy" maul conseque vencer os velhos F-15Cs.
Un EF es un aparato de superioridad aera, mas potente, mas rapido con mas armamento, ya vuela y esta operativo, el F35 es un avion de ataque a tierra, un ¿complemento? para el F22.
Grecia de momento no tiene recursos para comprar Eurofigters y los F35 de Turquia volaran para la decada que viene, por lo menos
De todas formas varias fuerzas aereas van a operar con el F35 y el Eurofigther de forma conjunta.
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2007_03_18/story_1879.asp
Transcript: project Joint Strike Fighter
March 18, 2007
Reporter: Liam Bartlett Producers: Glenda Gaitz, Howard Sacre
Introduction
LIAM BARTLETT: You can forget health, forget welfare — wait till you hear how they're spending your money now. Fifteen billion dollars of it, all for a new war plane. A top secret project called the Joint Strike Fighter (JFS), our biggest defence purchase ever.
I just had a sneak preview of this wonder jet in Texas, and I have to say it sure looks impressive. But then I took a look at the fine print. For some strange reason, our defence chiefs have gone into the deal without seriously considering any other plane. The JSF has only flown seven times and it might turn out to be a dud, the wrong aircraft to defend Australia. No wonder there's an almighty dogfight in the air.
Story
LIAM BARTLETT: We're at 1000 feet and climbing — climbing fast. Heading straight for the heavens at face-flattening speed — 13,000 feet in 17 seconds and we have got two enemy planes on our tail. This is Australia's frontline fighter the F-18 Hornet. And now I know what it's like in the middle of a dogfight. It's our most potent force in the sky, but despite the awesome, stomach-churning speed, this plane has seen its day. It is about to make way for a new-generation fighter, and that is where the real dogfight begins.
This is Fort Worth, Texas — home of America's largest military contractor. If you need something to kill an enemy, Lockheed Martin will build it for you, and business is booming. In here, what Lockheed Martin call Run Station 4, is the biggest new project of all — the next generation, radar avoiding supersonic jet.
It's known as the Joint Strike Fighter, so-called because it has been jointly funded by nine governments, including ours. Come and have a look at this. Six years in the making by a team of 8000 people and one finished plane. Australia plans to buy 100 of these beginning in 2013. It's the biggest defence deal in the nation's history, set to cost at least $15 billion.
LOCKHEED MARTIN'S TEST PILOT: This is the only one flying right now. And it has flown seven times.
LIAM BARTLETT: This test pilot is the only one who has flown it.
LOCKHEED MARTIN'S TEST PILOT: I think the thing that you see there is the future of tactical aviation and air combat.
LIAM BATRLETT: Can we have a closer look?
LOCKHEED MARTIN'S TEST PILOT: I don't think so. I don't think that's in the rules.
LIAM BARTLETT: It's off-limits because it's top-secret. How close can we get?
LOCKHEED MARTIN'S TEST PILOT: Right here.
LIAM BARTLETT: Just here?
LOCKHEED MARTIN'S TEST PILOT: Yeah, that's the rules.
LIAM BARTLETT: The question is, though, has Australia had a close enough look? The price tag on each plane will be well over $100 million. Some of our most distinguished airmen are desperately worried the Joint Strike Fighter will be another in a long line of Defence Department stuff-ups.
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: I've been around long enough to smell a rat, and I believe we've tried to take a short cut that has damaged the nation's defence in the long term.
LIAM BARTLETT: Air Vice-Marshall Peter Criss led the Air Force in the battle for East Timor. He wants Australia to buy another plane — the F-22, regarded as the most lethal jet fighter ever conceived. It's almost unheard of for commanding officers to break ranks, but the former air commander of Australia has come out of retirement to fight the Government's decision. So, in buying the Joint Strike Fighter, how many other planes have we considered?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: No others. No others.
LIAM BARTLETT: Not one? None?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: The process was shut-down very early on. A close friend of mine was head of the team to look at the acquisition — under project Air 6000 — he started the process and was told, 'No, stop that. We're not going to do that this time — we know better'.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: Once the decision was made to commit to the Joint Strike Fighter, it was then considered by the Government to be not appropriate to continue to go and look at alternative models.
LIAM BARTLETT: Dr Brendan Nelson is the Minister for Defence. Are you telling me that due diligence was comprehensively done on other planes in making this decision?
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: All of the advice that I have is that all of the necessary alternative aircraft were looked at in terms of capability, scheduling, cost, what they could offer to Australia in terms of the future ...
LIAM BARTLETT: Which of the planes were considered?
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: Well, I'm not going to go through that now, but ...
LIAM BARTLETT: Well, just tell me for the public record, and it would be if this committee looked at other alternatives, tell me which others were considered.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: Well, I'm not prepared to go through an exhaustive list of ...
LIAM BARTLETT: Well, just give me one.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: Well, the ... I'm not prepared to go through an exhaustive list of the alternative aircraft that were considered. The Joint Strike ...
LIAM BARTLETT: Why not?
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: The Joint Strike Fighter was considered to be the best aircraft for us.
LIAM BARTLETT: The Joint Strike Fighter will replace our ageing fleet of F-111s and this plane, the F-18 Hornet. The Hornet is 20 years old, but you wouldn't know it when you ride in one. Even though I'll be just an onlooker, there's a full day of preparation at Williamtown Base. I'll be sharing the cockpit with Group Captain Mel Hupfeld. He led a squadron of Australian F-18s backing up the Americans and British in the invasion of Iraq. If anyone knows what's needed in a war plane, it's him.
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: I don't want to have a level playing field. I want to have the advantage. I'd love to have the upper hand. We always ask for more fuel, we want more speed, we want to be able to carry more weapons, so that, if we encounter enemy, we have the best possible chance of being able to destroy that enemy to be able to achieve our objective for the mission.
LIAM BARTLETT: To cope with the enormous forces of gravity, pilots wear special G-suits. Squadron Leader Matt Hall explains how to avoid blacking out.
SQUADRON LEADER MATT HALL: And you push as hard as you can, squeezing every single muscle from here down as hard as you can. Basically, if you can try and blow a blood vessel in your eye, you're doing a good job. Now, take a big breath in. Hold it and push. Breathe out and in. Again.
LIAM BARTLETT: The dogfight will involve four aircraft — two F-18s versus these two Hawk trainer jet.
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: In today's mission, these guys are the bad guys, so their job out there is to try and kill us and stop us from getting to the target.
LIAM BARTLETT: Our target, if we don't get shot down, is a road bridge which we'll destroy with make-believe bombs. The fight is taking place in a huge slab of military airspace over New South Wales.
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: Okay, we're getting ready to fight. Are you all set? They're out on the right-hand side, Liam, can you see 'em? He's behind us somewhere. I couldn't see him in the sun there, but do you see that?
LIAM BARTLETT: I couldn't see anything, I was concentrating on staying in one piece. You're kidding, aren't you?
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: No, there he is, his flares. And we're turning back into the target now.
LIAM BARTLETT: I could see now why they taught me to suck in lungfuls of oxygen. We're pulling almost seven Gs, which means my body is seven times heavier than normal. It's like being crushed against the seat by a giant lead weight.
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: Now we're running in towards the target area. Okay, crossing over … we want to be on the southern side. We're still looking out for enemy aircraft along here.
LIAM BARTLETT: After an hour of white-knuckled flying, the dogfight is over, but I'll have to wait until we are back on the ground to find out if our mission was accomplished. You think about any roller-coaster you have been in in your life in an amusement park, times it by about 20, strap yourself in until you can't breathe, and you start to get the hang of it and then try not feel sick in the process and worry about where the enemy is — behind you or underneath you — it's just phenomenal, is the word, isn't it?
GROUP CAPTAIN MEL HUPFELD: I'm used to it after flying for a number of years, but every mission is different.
LIAM BARTLETT: Did we win?
SECOND PILOT: Yep, so we took out the first guy — you guys shot the first guy — he's gone. We then flew through to the next guy, we IDed him, you couldn't get a missile off, so I shot him with a missile and follow-up gun shot and then we went to the bridge, I got my bombs off, you got your bombs off. Done.
LIAM BARTLETT: Of course, it was all new to me. But the fact is, these F-18 Hornets are old hat. A new generation plane, like the Joint Strike Fighter, is largely invisible to radar, has super advanced weapons systems and can deliver a more potent payload of bombs. But, it's not the best there is. Rolling off the very same production line at Lockheed Martin, is the most awesome jet fighter in the world, the F-22. And every pilot agrees the F-22 is the Ferrari of fighters.
AIR VICE-MARSHALL PETER CRISS: It is the Crown Jewels, without a doubt. It has got a capability that stands it shoulders above any other fighter in the world at present.
LIAM BARTLETT: Why wouldn't you take it?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: Well, that's what I can't understand. That's what I am so frustrated about in this whole process.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: The reason we're not asking for the F-22 is because, whilst it is a brilliant air-to-air combat fighter, Australia needs 100 aircraft. We need a great all-rounder — it can bat and it can bowl it can do air-to-air combat and strike capability.
LIAM BARTLETT: And there is another reason for this decision, but get this, the Minister says he can't tell us about it because it's top secret.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: It's the five percent of this aircraft's capability that is classified to which I have had privileged access and, that's the five percent that really counts. And that's why this is the correct aircraft for us.
LIAM BARTLETT: 'Trust me, I'm a politician?'
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: I'm very privileged to have access to all of the information that is available — not only on this aircraft but on a number of others. This is the right aircraft for Australia.
LIAM BARTLETT: You have spent a lot of hours in the cockpit of fighter planes, if it came to war with one of our regional neighbours, would you be confident that you could beat them in the air behind the controls of the Joint Strike Fighter?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: No, no. Because already in our region there are formidable, very formidable, predominantly Russian, mainly Sukhoi family variants of aircraft.
LIAM BARTLETT: Let me get this straight, you're saying most of our regional neighbours will have Russian-made planes that can potentially beat the Joint Strike Fighter?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: Yes. That's why I am saying.
LIAM BARTLETT: That's alarming, isn't it?
AIR VICE-MARSHALL (RET) PETER CRISS: Well, that's why I am alarmed. We're going to go and buy an aircraft, throw it into a region that may or may not be hostile to us then say, 'Well, good luck boys, hope you come back.'
LIAM BARTLETT: Back in Texas, they allowed me into the declassified simulator of the Joint Strike Fighter. The real simulator remains top-secret. Within an hour, I was blowing the enemy from the sky. There's no question it will be a deadly war plane. The question is, will it be the best plane for Australia? It's the biggest military purchase we have ever made, gee, I hope you've got it right.
DEFENCE MINISTER BRENDAN NELSON: I treat decision-making in this area and the capability that we provide to the men and women who wear the uniform of the Royal Australian Air Force as if any one of those men and women were a member of my own family — my own son, my own daughter. I am very confident that this is the correct aircraft for Australia and to protect the interest, safety and well-being of the men and women who will fly it. That's why we're getting it.
Amigo…el avión avanza….
Eso de prototipo es un “decir” pues cuando el EFA se declaró “operacional” hacía poco más que volar…
Por dios old….¿cómo puedes decir eso?.... Confused
Te informo que steath es una capacidad contra radares….
También te recuerdo que el F-35 tiene integrados sistemas optronicos de ataque sin limitaciones, como un simple IRST.
Así, el F-35 puede realizar un ataque con bombas LGB 100% stealth…sin emitir….
Y….???, eso qué tiene que ver.
Por lo demás, España no es miembro del programa, por lo que tendrá que ponerse en fila,
como cualquier hijo de vecino.
1) No se ha demostrado nada….solo se “reclama esa capacidad”
2) Interceptar es “intentar evitar” que el enemigo entre…
O EF-2000, assim como o Rafale, F-18E, e mesmo o Gripen, nao traz nada bem novo ou revolutionario para combate ar-ar. Pelo menos os cacas russos tem TVCs, estes avioes nem tem isso. Sim, as sistemas eletrionicos sao mais novos mas eles sao avioes para o seculo vinte. O EF-2000 provavilmente e' o limite de cacas da quarta geracao.
Para comparar o F-22 e F-35 com o EF-2000 e' para comparar um F-86 Sabre e F-80 Shooting Star com um Spitfire da GMII.
El sistema Pirate del EFA tiene un alcance superior a los sistemas opticos del F35 (hasta 90km)
The EOTS uses a staring midwave 3rd generation FLIR that provides superior target detection and identification at greatly increased standoff ranges. EOTS also provides high-resolution imagery, automatic tracking, infrared-search-and-track, laser designation and rangefinding, and laser spot tracking. Sharing a Sniper legacy, it provides high reliability and efficient two-level maintenance
In a joint effort with Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems will provide key electronic sensors for the F-35, which includes spearheading the work on the Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS).
Tanto el Sistema DASS como el PIRATE necesitan ser colgados de la alas para que sean equivalentes, tanto en el F22 como el F35. No sirven en sus bodegas.
A parte de que necesitan abrir sus bodegas. 1,87 segundos. Una eternidad si tu enemigo va en silecio (modo optico) y ademas porta Meteors. No es tan sencillo...No vas a internarte en territorio enemigo para soltar 4 granadas encima sin guia laser ni radarica para que no te derriben sus AA
El F35 tiene 4 puntos internos en las bodegas, una carga bastante lamentable y pobre, si quiere explotar el verdadero potencial del aparato debera fijar carga en los soportes alares, desapareciendo su furtividad.
Aun hay mas: Sobre radares:
More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature. This should enable a Eurofighter pilot to remain undetected by his enemy until he his significantly closer than he may otherwise be able to achieve
Me parece que algo se mueve con mucha antelacion..para evitar "filas o colas" (entre 15 y 100)
Supercrucero de 1,3 match en configuracion aire aire..
Mayor velocidad punta y de crucero
Mayor agilidad y maniobrabilidad
Supercrucero
Potencia/calidad/variedad de sensores
Equipamiento defensivo
Guerra electronica
RCS reducido (incomparable a los F 15/18/16 y ni digamos los rusos)
y todo sin comprometer el precio (F22) o las capacidades (F35)
pero el F35 esta bien por detras de los SU Rafale Mig y no digamos EFA. En multitud de foros norteamericanos, Italianos, Ingleses etc etc etc El F35 queda en 5º o 6º Lugar.
Cada cual en su sitio.
cosa que los americanos saben hacer muy bien, cosa que usted a parecido copiar.
F22 carisimo hasta recortar pedidos de forma alarmante y un F35 superado por casi todos los aviones en servicio del mundo. (nuevos) Aun asi y todo son chachi piruli porque son "F"s
Patton escreveu:Nossa, eu devo deixar o Degan para falar para mim ele sabe tudo! Tambem ele fala Espanhol uma coisa que eu tenho muito dificuldades em fazer.F22 carisimo hasta recortar pedidos de forma alarmante y un F35 superado por casi todos los aviones en servicio del mundo. (nuevos) Aun asi y todo son chachi piruli porque son "F"s
Olha por enquanto a USAF receberao apenas 183 F-22s. A orderem inicial para o M1 tanque em 1979 era apenas circa de 200s copias. Hoje nos temos alguns 8 mil tanques desse tipo. Com tempo a USAF vai precisar mais aeronaves para tomar o lugar dos mais velhos, e receberao mais F-22s. Todo mundo disse que toda a nossa dineiro vai para Iraq, sim vai no momento. Nos podemos sempre comprar mais avioes depois.
O EF-2000 nao e' ruim nao, provavilmente e' o melhor aviao nao-stealth que tem. Mas nao tem nada que o F-35 nao tem de melhor. Dizem que o EFA pode "Super cruise" e fazer isso e aquilo por que ningem vai comprar o EFA se todo mundo sabe que o F-35 e' melhor como caca tambem.
O EFA, Rafale, e Gripen sao apenas "Euro-canards." Em tudo, nao ha' grande diferenca entre estes tres. O Gripen, na minha opiniao e' muito melhor do que os outros tres em termos de custo-beneficio.
Bolovo escreveu:Patton escreveu:Nossa, eu devo deixar o Degan para falar para mim ele sabe tudo! Tambem ele fala Espanhol uma coisa que eu tenho muito dificuldades em fazer.F22 carisimo hasta recortar pedidos de forma alarmante y un F35 superado por casi todos los aviones en servicio del mundo. (nuevos) Aun asi y todo son chachi piruli porque son "F"s
Olha por enquanto a USAF receberao apenas 183 F-22s. A orderem inicial para o M1 tanque em 1979 era apenas circa de 200s copias. Hoje nos temos alguns 8 mil tanques desse tipo. Com tempo a USAF vai precisar mais aeronaves para tomar o lugar dos mais velhos, e receberao mais F-22s. Todo mundo disse que toda a nossa dineiro vai para Iraq, sim vai no momento. Nos podemos sempre comprar mais avioes depois.
O EF-2000 nao e' ruim nao, provavilmente e' o melhor aviao nao-stealth que tem. Mas nao tem nada que o F-35 nao tem de melhor. Dizem que o EFA pode "Super cruise" e fazer isso e aquilo por que ningem vai comprar o EFA se todo mundo sabe que o F-35 e' melhor como caca tambem.
O EFA, Rafale, e Gripen sao apenas "Euro-canards." Em tudo, nao ha' grande diferenca entre estes tres. O Gripen, na minha opiniao e' muito melhor do que os outros tres em termos de custo-beneficio.
Eita.
Concordo com TUDO!!
)...
Jane's Comment:
According to Jane's Defence Forecasts, the Eurofighter Typhoon is favourite the win the contest for Japan's next-generation fighter requirement. If Eurofighter were to win the contract, the cost of the aircraft - based on the 80 aircraft Japan would need to replace its current F-4EJ fighters - could reach more than USD9 billion.
Ale Degan deje de publicar publicidad del fabricante, que no es mas que eso. Publicidad cosa que los americanos saben hacer muy bien, cosa que usted a parecido copiar.
En lo que es mejor, dice que es discutible y lo que es aun mejor dice que se esta desarrollando
y un F35 superado por casi todos los aviones en servicio del mundo. (nuevos)
e um RCS muitissimo inferior, se este ultima vantagem for degradada por novos sistemas que surjam na próxima década, então o F35 pura e simplesmente não tem a velocidade e acelaração necessárias para agir como uma plataforma ar-ar, qualquer caça da geração anterior pode negar um confronto ligando a pós combustão e afastar-se (bom, o "Super Bug" não o consegue fazer )...
E antes que alguém venha comparar o CAPTOR com o APG 81, ou o ETOPS com o PIRATE, é bom lembrar que os equipamentos do caça americano estarão completamente operacionais lá para 2020 e calculo que ninguém esteja à espera que o desenvolvimento do Tiffie fique parado...
Imaginam um Tiffie com a cauda traseira retirada, com radar novo, motores 25% mais potentes, armas em pod´s "stealth", sistemas opticos com alcance de centenas de km´s? Isto poderá perfeitamente tornar-se realidade lá para 2020/25.
E outra coisa, já leram o ultimo relatório do GAO Norte Americano?- O F35 está "fast forward" a ultrapassar o custo dos "Euro canards" e a aproximar-se do F22... E ainda não existe nenhum prototipo final a voar (aquele avião que saiu do chão no final do ano passado é um "one off"). E a lock Mart está a tornar-se especialista em triplicar/quadriplicar o preço dos equipamentos que vende...
