Fórum Defesa Brasil

SUT escreveu:Osea, en sentido estricto, podrian tener Type 22.1 o Niteroi con Scalp apenas el sistema sea vendidble/exportable ( entiendo que quedan algunas cosas quehacer en integracion del sistema de lanzamiento a bordo en tema de transferencia de data de posicion, etc...cosas comparativamente menores)...no es necesario una FREMM..

Incluso, podria estar a bordo de una Lafayette, Meko avanzada, etc, etc...

Siempre que sus sistemas C2 lo admitan.

Saludos,

Sut

SUT

Enfiar alguns Sylver70 que é um VLS GRANDE que se farta em plataformas de 3000 toneladas... Não me parece.
Aquelas FREEM´s têm o tamanho que têm em parte devido à profundidade do Sylver70.

Abraços

Italy Confident It Can Afford 4 More
FREMM Frigates

Despite slipping deadlines for signatures and rumors of funding shortfalls, the Italian government has committed to
buying four Fremm frigates in 2008, bringing to six the number of vessels ordered in a total planned buy of 10.
The first two frigates were ordered in 2005 after a last-minute scramble for extraordinary funding as regular defense
spending was cut. Publication of budget figures for 2008 called into question Italy’s ability to proceed with a second
lot of Fremm frigates, as industrial sources feared funding would not cover commitments.

Defense Undersecretary Lorenzo Forcieri had maintained that the government would find funding in the defense
budget for two of the four, with a reported 770 million euros ($1.14 billion) then supplied by the Industry Ministry for
the remaining two.
But doubts emerged after it became clear the government would seek to spend some of those 770 million euros to buy
up to 40 new armored vehicles, as well.
With the frigates costing about 350 million euros each, and the Italian VBC wheeled vehicles in question running to
about 6 million euros each, according to government documents, one senior industrial source said the sums did not
add up.
“The total does get you two vessels, but not if the government wants it to cover vehicles too,” the source said.
But Forcieri said on Nov. 28 the math was sound.
“There is no problem, since the money may be closer to 800 million euros and payments for the vehicles may be
spread over more than one year,” he said.
Italy plans to build 10 Fremm frigates in a joint program with France, which has ordered 17. After the Italian effort
nearly died due to defense cuts in 2005, the Ministry of Industry stepped in to guarantee repayment on a loan for the
construction of the first two vessels. Work is due to start in early 2008.
The same payment system has been set up for two vessels in the second lot of four. The up-to-800 million euros freed
up in 2008 will derive from a loan that will be paid back by 2035 by the Ministry of Industry. The repayment, with
interest, will total 1.05 billion euros.
Shipbuilder Fincantieri and Finmeccanica, which have teamed on the Fremm program, were due to impose small
penalty payments if they did not receive the order for the second lot by Nov. 16, but allowed that date slip to Feb. 16
to allow the government to wrap up its 2008 spending plan, the industrial source said.
The Ministry of Industry loan for half of the second lot may have been arranged, but the defense funding for the other
half is still to arrive, something the constructors will take in their stride, the source said.
“In 2008 and 2009, Italy’s new aircraft carrier and its two Horizon frigates will be completed, which should free up
funds for Fremm in 2009 and 2010,” he said. “The signing for four vessels next year could be based on the Industry
Ministry funding and guarantees of future defense spending.”
The Industry Ministry-backed loan is one of two destined to benefit defense procurement in the 2008 budget. An
identical package, with the same repayment scheme, has also been arranged to cover the purchase of the first seven
of up to 15 Aermacchi M-346 jet trainers that Italy intends to buy, as well as contributing to the purchase of EH101
helicopters and other programs.
The first lot of two Fremm frigates and the launch of the VBC vehicle program were covered by a loan worth 1.65
billion euros, authorized in 2005, to be paid back by the Ministry of Industry. With the ministry already contributing to
Eurofighter payments, it has become an important source of defence funding.
Calculating the exact top-up given by the ministry is complicated because its repayments on new loans are spread over
decades, while it is already paying off loans taken out years ago. And in addition to procurements, it also funds the
research and development of aerospace products by local firms such as Finmeccanica.
In an October article in the online publication AffarInternazionale, analyst Michele Nones wrote that the loans backed
by industry ministry repayments and issued for defense technology development and acquisition in Italy have equaled
8 percent of normal defense spending in the last three years, meaning around 1 billion euros a year.
While Italy’s work on its Fremm frigates has been slowed by funding crunches, France has moved ahead and is in talks
to build vessels for Morocco. The Italian industrial source suggested France might consider selling to Morocco vessels
earmarked for the French Navy if France decided to opt instead for a version hosting the Aster 30 missile.

“This would involve changing the launcher from the A43 to the A50 launcher,” the source said. “The Italian Navy has
also considered this option.” Source : defensenews

fuente:
DAILY COLLECTION OF MARITIME PRESS CLIPPINGS 2007 – 280

P44 escreveu:Italy Confident It Can Afford 4 More
FREMM Frigates

Despite slipping deadlines for signatures and rumors of funding shortfalls, the Italian government has committed to
buying four Fremm frigates in 2008, bringing to six the number of vessels ordered in a total planned buy of 10.
The first two frigates were ordered in 2005 after a last-minute scramble for extraordinary funding as regular defense
spending was cut. Publication of budget figures for 2008 called into question Italy’s ability to proceed with a second
lot of Fremm frigates, as industrial sources feared funding would not cover commitments.

Defense Undersecretary Lorenzo Forcieri had maintained that the government would find funding in the defense
budget for two of the four, with a reported 770 million euros ($1.14 billion) then supplied by the Industry Ministry for
the remaining two.
But doubts emerged after it became clear the government would seek to spend some of those 770 million euros to buy
up to 40 new armored vehicles, as well.
With the frigates costing about 350 million euros each, and the Italian VBC wheeled vehicles in question running to
about 6 million euros each, according to government documents, one senior industrial source said the sums did not
add up.
“The total does get you two vessels, but not if the government wants it to cover vehicles too,” the source said.
But Forcieri said on Nov. 28 the math was sound.
“There is no problem, since the money may be closer to 800 million euros and payments for the vehicles may be
spread over more than one year,” he said.
Italy plans to build 10 Fremm frigates in a joint program with France, which has ordered 17. After the Italian effort
nearly died due to defense cuts in 2005, the Ministry of Industry stepped in to guarantee repayment on a loan for the
construction of the first two vessels. Work is due to start in early 2008.
The same payment system has been set up for two vessels in the second lot of four. The up-to-800 million euros freed
up in 2008 will derive from a loan that will be paid back by 2035 by the Ministry of Industry. The repayment, with
interest, will total 1.05 billion euros.
Shipbuilder Fincantieri and Finmeccanica, which have teamed on the Fremm program, were due to impose small
penalty payments if they did not receive the order for the second lot by Nov. 16, but allowed that date slip to Feb. 16
to allow the government to wrap up its 2008 spending plan, the industrial source said.
The Ministry of Industry loan for half of the second lot may have been arranged, but the defense funding for the other
half is still to arrive, something the constructors will take in their stride, the source said.
“In 2008 and 2009, Italy’s new aircraft carrier and its two Horizon frigates will be completed, which should free up
funds for Fremm in 2009 and 2010,” he said. “The signing for four vessels next year could be based on the Industry
Ministry funding and guarantees of future defense spending.”
The Industry Ministry-backed loan is one of two destined to benefit defense procurement in the 2008 budget. An
identical package, with the same repayment scheme, has also been arranged to cover the purchase of the first seven
of up to 15 Aermacchi M-346 jet trainers that Italy intends to buy, as well as contributing to the purchase of EH101
helicopters and other programs.
The first lot of two Fremm frigates and the launch of the VBC vehicle program were covered by a loan worth 1.65
billion euros, authorized in 2005, to be paid back by the Ministry of Industry. With the ministry already contributing to
Eurofighter payments, it has become an important source of defence funding.
Calculating the exact top-up given by the ministry is complicated because its repayments on new loans are spread over
decades, while it is already paying off loans taken out years ago. And in addition to procurements, it also funds the
research and development of aerospace products by local firms such as Finmeccanica.
In an October article in the online publication AffarInternazionale, analyst Michele Nones wrote that the loans backed
by industry ministry repayments and issued for defense technology development and acquisition in Italy have equaled
8 percent of normal defense spending in the last three years, meaning around 1 billion euros a year.
While Italy’s work on its Fremm frigates has been slowed by funding crunches, France has moved ahead and is in talks
to build vessels for Morocco. The Italian industrial source suggested France might consider selling to Morocco vessels
earmarked for the French Navy if France decided to opt instead for a version hosting the Aster 30 missile.

“This would involve changing the launcher from the A43 to the A50 launcher,” the source said. “The Italian Navy has
also considered this option.” Source : defensenews

fuente:
DAILY COLLECTION OF MARITIME PRESS CLIPPINGS 2007 – 280

As próximas serão as nossas,amigo P44!

Sintra, mi argumento era una reductio ad absurdum respecto a la relacion de sun sistma de arms versus una plataforma. Indudablemente que instlar un silo es mas comodo en una plataforma diseñada para ello, pero, no te creas, que soluciones interesantes son perfectamente viables para una plataforma comparativamente grande como una Vosper Mk10 o una Type 22.1. En las ultimas, el corredor a estribor del hangar te permite instalar celdas de gran tamaño e incluso peso sin alterar demasiado la estabilidad, ya ue es comparativamente simple desplazar elementos internos del hangar a la banda cotraria ( estanques de foam, cabrestantes y elements de potencia del RAST, etc) Una Mk10 tiendo a pensar que perfectamente podria recibirlos, de asi quererse, en las bandas del hangar, incluso con menos penalizacion

pero, el punto clave en esto es que como bien señalas no es lo optimo, y lo ideal es una plataforma nueva, short fat con gran volumen interno que te permita no solo recibir el VLS y estas armas, sino una panoplia ojala mas amplia de armas AA y ASW.

Respecto a la noticia publicada, la verdad es que la osa se ve incluso mas grave que lo original; Ya se confirma el drama de que NO se van a pedir los numeros originales y parece quehasta las eventuales "segundo par de PAAMS en plataforma post Horizon" se estan sumando al numero global de cascos a construir. La noticia italiana solo reduce el deficit, pero mantiene los plazos superiores ya referidos, es decir, estan en el 80% de los cascos en un plazo al menos un 50% superior. Los Franceses, sorry, pero venderle una FREMM a una marina que opera una corbeta Descubierta y dos OPVs Floreal no se realmente si la cosa se vea demasiado bien. Efectivamente, Sarkozy SI les saco una firma en un MoU, pero, eso no implica nada, no hay dinero amarrado ahi y si TODOS los programas navales europeos ( y que decir de los multinaionales9 son un ejemplo, me atreveria a decir, simplemente basado en eso, que los plazos seran al menos unn50% mayores a los especificados con un precio el 100% superior...

no es por ser mala onda, es solo constatar una muy desagradable realidad empirica....

sinceramente, cada dia miro con mas interes a los Koreanos; nadie dudaria que construyen bien, cumplen plazos, cobran barato y, mas encima, te hacen el bicho a la medida. Puede que no sean tan llamativos o modernosos como los buqes europeos ( factor no menor del Poder Naval en el sentido de James Cable en su Gunboat Diplomacy) , pero, al final del dia hacen bang igual de bien, a menos precio y con plazos confiables de entrega.

Saludos,

Sut

talharim escreveu:Esse negócio de se levar política de defesa a sério no Brasil...

Então pq vão levar 1 ano para decidir alguma coisa sobre F-X ?

Pq os outros fecham negócio em 1 mês e recebem o equipamento em 1 ano..............

E nós levamos 1 ano inteiro para decidir alguma coisa ? É mal de brasileiro mesmo.........

Se está se fazendo um planejamento, para se ter compras de armas, para os 03 ramos de nossas FA´s segundo diretrizes gerais e com alta comunabilidade, não acho que um ano seja muito, o que espero é que após um ano, se tome as decisões certas.

Porém, é bem possível, e já está sendo feita, algumas compras, até mesmo de material usado, compras de ocasião. E de outros como no caso dos helos, submarinos e mísseis para os nossos vetores.

[ ]´s

PRick escreveu:

talharim escreveu:Esse negócio de se levar política de defesa a sério no Brasil...

Então pq vão levar 1 ano para decidir alguma coisa sobre F-X ?

Pq os outros fecham negócio em 1 mês e recebem o equipamento em 1 ano..............

E nós levamos 1 ano inteiro para decidir alguma coisa ? É mal de brasileiro mesmo.........

Se está se fazendo um planejamento, para se ter compras de armas, para os 03 ramos de nossas FA´s segundo diretrizes gerais e com alta comunabilidade, não acho que um ano seja muito, o que espero é que após um ano, se tome as decisões certas.

Porém, é bem possível, e já está sendo feita, algumas compras, até mesmo de material usado, compras de ocasião. E de outros como no caso dos helos, submarinos e mísseis para os nossos vetores.

[ ]´s

Pleno acordo,amigo Prick,é isso mesmo!