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[P44]

http://reference.allrefer.com/country-g ... al173.html

Portugal

Navy

Portugal has a strong maritime tradition dating from the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, when explorers inspired by Prince Henry the Navigator reached Madeira, the Azores, and the west coast of Africa, rounded the Cape of Good Hope, and sailed on to establish the sea route to India. Although traditionally the service with the greatest prestige, the navy declined during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. For a period in the 1950s, this trend was reversed when modern frigates, corvettes, minesweepers, and patrol vessels were acquired through military assistance from the United States. After the Revolution of 1974, the number of operational fighting vessels declined by more than half, from forty to seventeen.

During the colonial wars, the navy was active in efforts to interdict guerrilla movements on rivers, lakes, and coastal waters of Africa. After the withdrawal of the armed forces from Africa, the navy's emphasis shifted to home waters, where its missions have been defined as protecting the sea lanes between the mainland and the islands of the Azores and Madeira, cooperating with the other services in the defense of Portuguese territory, patrolling the 200-mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) off Portugal's coast, and meeting Portugal's NATO responsibilities in the Iberian Atlantic Command (IBERLANT) zone of operations (see Portugal and NATO , this ch.).

The chief of the naval staff (an admiral) was supported by the vice chief of naval staff (a vice admiral), the continental naval commander (also a vice admiral), the Azores naval commander (a rear admiral), the Madeira naval commander (a captain), and the Marine Corps commandant (a captain). The main naval base was at Alfeite near Lisbon, as was the Naval Academy. The continental naval command was at Portimão on the south coast. The commanders in the Azores and Madeira exercised the concurrent role of NATO island commander.

Between the end of the colonial wars in 1974 and 1992, the navy's personnel strength decreased from 19,400 to 15,300. As of early 1992, about 5,000 of the navy's personnel were conscripts serving for sixteen months. Standards of performance and motivation of career NCO personnel were reported to have been affected by the decline. Many NCOs, trained at considerable expense by the navy, had departed for private sector employment. Lack of advancement, wage levels not commensurate with the skills involved, and the diminishing prestige of naval careers were said to be contributing factors. As a result of the flight of technicians, previous training and fitness standards could not be maintained.

The principal combat vessels of the Portuguese navy were four frigates and three submarines of French construction and ten small frigates (sometimes classified as corvettes) built in Spain and Germany. The French frigates and submarines were commissioned in the late 1960s, and the corvettes were commissioned between 1970 and 1975, although they were later modernized by the addition of new communications and electronics gear. The navy also operated a number of coastal patrol and auxiliary vessels (see table 13, Appendix). Three modern MEKO-200 frigates were commissioned in 1991. These ships, built in Germany and financed with the help of seven NATO members, were, at 3,200 tons, much larger than any other vessels in the existing fleet. They were to be armed with torpedoes, Harpoon surface-to-surface missiles, the Sea Sparrow SAM, and advanced sonar and fire-control systems. They would also accommodate two helicopters for antisubmarine operations.

Even with the addition of the MEKO frigates, Portugal had only a limited capability to carry out its IBERLANT responsibilities. The main potential threats were submarines that might interdict the Atlantic sea lanes and mines that could force the closure of ports. The navy's antisubmarine warfare capability, although improving, was still deemed deficient, particularly in view of the lack of air reconnaissance. The lack of minesweepers to operate in the Portugal-Madeira-Azores triangle was a further shortcoming in view of the strategic importance of this zone for European shipping. The navy had plans to replace its submarines and to purchase ocean-going patrol vessels and minesweepers, but it was not clear how they would be financed.

The Marine Corps consisted of 2,500 men, of whom approximately half were conscripts. They were organized into two infantry battalions and one naval police battalion. The marines were trained for small amphibious operations and shore patrol duties. In addition to light arms, their equipment included wheeled armored vehicles, mortars, and landing craft.

Data as of January 1993

[Rui Elias Maltez]

De facto, e com o risco de me estar a repetir acho que é uma lacuna grave a nossa Marinha, e o país, não ter essa valência.

Mas não é uma falha estratégica, como outras ao nível da Marinha e prinncipalmente da FAP.

Creio que por se tratar de plataformas pequenas e sem meios especialmente sofisticados (até o Instituto Hidrográfico possui instrumentos para procurar minas), se um dia se se perspectivasse essa necessidade, mercê de uma ameaça concreta e eminente, Portugal poderia rapidamente comprar fora (mesmo que usado), ou construir nos seus estaleiros 2 ou 3 unidades para essa função, ou então proceder a adptações para isso no Xultz, ou num dos dois hidrográficos que temos.

[P44]

Rui, viu as idades dos dragas espanhois? os nossos "S. roque" eram da mesma altura e foram abatidos em finais da década de 80/inicio da de 90

Eu sei que o S.Roque prestava apoio aos mergulhadores, e o M404 (não me lembro do nome) esteve uns tempos atracado em V.Franca no Grupo 1 de Escolas da Armada, mas não sei se ainda lá estará.

Ontme andei a tentar encontrar fotos dos "bichos" mas nada...mas eu tenho fotos em qq lado...nos meus baús, junto com as "gaijas"...hei-de descobrir, porra!!!!

[Rui Elias Maltez]

Esse abate dos navios com a mesma idade dos espanhois, sem trer nada pasa substituir é o exemplo do Portugal no seu melhor.

[P44]

Rui,

Conhecia estes "bichos"??? Eram a Classe "São Jorge" (M 415)

http://www.indwes.edu/Faculty/bcupp/Story/combflt.htm

MINE WARFARE SHIPS

«» 85 Agile class oceangoing minesweepers

MSO 475 MDAP built for France
MSO 476 MDAP built for France
MSO 477 MDAP built for France
MSO 478 MDAP built for Portugal
MSO 479 MDAP built for Portugal
MSO 480 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 481 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 482 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 483 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 484 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 485 MDAP built for the Netherlands
MSO 486 MDAP built for Portugal
MS0 487 MDAP built for Portugal

REMARKS: 100 of these vessels were originally built, cost $3.5 million in 1951. Designated as Wooden Minesweepers [AM], they were reclassifed to Minesweeper, Ocean (non-magnetic) in Feb. 1955. Wooden construction; nonmagnetic, stainless-steel machinery. Hoist machinery for the SQQ-14 minehunting sonar occupies the position of the former 40-mm AA gun. Hull nos. 450-454, 475-487, 498-507, 512-518 and 522 were built in the U.S. under the Mutual Defense Assistance Program; no U.S. names were allocated. 15 were transferred to France, 6 to the Netherlands, 4 to Portugal, 5 to Belgium, 2 to Norway, and 4 to Italy. Many of these ships have been transferred to other navies after having been paid off by their original service.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/11/02421.htm

DRAGA MINAS OCEANICOS!!!!!!!!!

[P44]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/11/05idx.htm

AMS / MSC-91 to Portugal as Vila Do Porto (M 408)
AMS / MSC-92 to Portugal as Santa Cruz (M 409)

AMS / MSC-241 Built in Portugal as Sao Roque (M 401)
AMS / MSC-242 Built in Portugal as Logia (M 403)

Logia=Lagoa!!!!

[P44]

fonte: Revista “Warships –International Fleet Review”, ed. Fev. 2005.

o HMS Inverness, na sua chegada final a Porsmouth, antes de ser abatido ao efectivo da Royal Navy.

[Rui Elias Maltez]

P-44:

Mas esses 4 draga-minas oceânicos estiveram ao serviço da nossa Armada até quando?

Que pena mais uma vez a nossa tradicional visão de vistas curtas fazer com que nos entretenhamos com minundências em vez de uma visão estratégica para o futuro do país e das suas FA's.

Abater os draga-minas que tínhamos, se calhar para poupar nos custos, sem que hajam planos para reconstituir essa valência...

[P44]

Rui, sinceramente não lhe sei dizer. Talvez o JLRC ou o JNSA saibam..

[ferrol]

Como podem ver, os "pobrezinhos" Espanhois ainda usam Draga-Minas do tempo da pedra

Pois ten vostede sorte, amigo P44, porque se tarda un mes máis, xa non os pode poñer. O M22 e o M26 danse de baixa o 25 deste mes...

Agora traballamos con outros modelos, que tamén saen na páxina de Eugenio e dos que xa puxen fotos no forumdef...e que son variantes dos Sandown británicos.

(Cos debidos recoñecementos a Diego Carmona da Revista Naval)

Parece mentira, P44, parece mentira...

[Rui Elias Maltez]

Está a ver, P44?

Espanha abaterá os velhos draga-minas que tem, porque já tem substitutos para eles ,baseados nos britânicos.

E ainda por cima um deles parece ter o nome de Tejo (Tajo)

É o que eu digo.

Cada vez se acentua mais e mais o desiquilibrio estratégico entre os dois países.

E não quero que você ou outros colegas pensem que é por uma questão de rivalidade ou bairrismo.

É que potencialmente estes desiquilibrios, históricamente levaram sempre a maus resultados.

Que grau de ameaça credível e eminente justifica esta corrida espanhola ao armamento nas suas diversas vertentes?

Marrocos?

Contem essa anedota a outro.

[P44]

Ai! Que ele tá a ter um ataque de antiespanholite aguda!!!!

Tenha calma Rui!!!!!!!

Eu já sabia disso, que a Armada Espanhola tem novos dragas idênticos aos que os ingleses tão a ABATER!!!!

E quanto a darem-lhe o nome "Tajo" (Tejo) então o Rio Tejo não nasce em Espanha? Já agora, também existe o "Duero" (Douro)(ai que o homem passa-se!!!! )

Se chamassem a algum "Sado" aí sim, era razão para protestar

Se calhar, se não andássemos nestas "tricas" constantes, podiamos aproveitar e aduirir uns naviozitos a Espanha, a bom preço.

Consta que as LST "Pizarro" e "Cortez" também vão "encostar brevemente", li na Warships IFR...

Tenha calma, Rui, você já parece o Deus dos Tsunamis, que já ia em Madrid só com a BMI...

[P44]

O SÃO ROQUE em Abril de 1991 na BNL, aquando da chagada da VdG.

[Rui Elias Maltez]

Adquir esses draga-minas a Espanha poderia ser uma solução de recurso, mas que nos permitiria recuperar essa valência pelo menos atá que fosse possível adquir melhor, ou mais novo.

Mas como já sabemos, essa valência não está nos planos da nossa Armada.

Portugal no seu melhor

Só uma nota:

Eu não sou anti-espanhol, nem sou patrioteiro de pacotilha.

Acho que já expliquei as razões porque acho perigoso a prazo esse desiquilíbrio estratégico crescente entre os dois países peninsulares.

[P44]

Oh Rui, vc decida-se!!!!

Ou gostamos dos espanhois e compramos-lhes uns barcunchos, ou não somos e preparamo-nos para "la invasion"...