A Marinha Americana pode Restabelecer a Quarta Frota

[alcmartin]

É...acho que aqueles filminhos de F16 X U2 vão começar de novo, trocando por Su30 X SH...procurou, achou!

O galho é que esse povo costuma não perder a viagem... Os suecos que o digam. E tome "rojão de fogo"...

[orestespf]

É...acho que aqueles filminhos de F16 X U2 vão começar de novo, trocando por Su30 X SH...procurou, achou!

O galho é que esse povo costuma não perder a viagem... Os suecos que o digam. E tome "rojão de fogo"...

Esta é a minha preocupação, amigo AlcMartin. Tudo o que não queremos são americanos na região e o Chávez sabe disso. Logo podemos concluir que quem "ganha" com esta notícia é o Chapolin, pois colocou uma pedra em nossos sapatos.

Esta notícia é tão delicada que nos coloca no colo dos americanos, podendo inclusive influenciar fortemente a escolha de alguns equipamentos militares. A notícia é um recado muito claro pra nós brasileiros, mas disfarçada de "preocupações regionais com o Chávez". Dependendo do que conseguirmos comprar e do grau de transferência tecnológica que poderemos absorver...

Em suma, nenhuma potência deixa que outro país se transforme igualmente em potência, a história prova isso. Para ser uma potência (principalmente militar) é necessário "força bruta" (guerra) e não se transforma da noite para o dia. Não basta ter grana e economia forte (já disse isso aqui, é fácil "destruir" uma economia forte, principalmente se desarmada).

Se tem uma coisa que os americanos não se preocupam nem um pouco é com o Chávez. Se tem uma coisa que preocupa e muito os americanos é o Brasil com um economia indo de vento em popa e se armando, principalmente se for possível absorver conhecimentos e tecnologia, visto que já demonstramos competência para absorvê-la rapidamente e empregá-la em tempo recorde. Eles sabem que nosso maior problema é grana, mas havendo...

Na cabeça dos políticos americanos existe uma forma de minimizar todo este problema, obrigar o Brasil a se aliar (tudo documentado, claro) com eles, principalmente fazendo uso de equipamentos deles (que podem ser controlado).

Deixo para os colegas as conclusões finais, tenho que trabalhar.


Grande abraço,

Orestes

[Morcego]

Qual o Problema de os AMERICANOS terem uma base conjunta com nossa MB? só teriamos a aprender.

Com certeza ratos com o Mr. Joe não viveriam tanto tempo dentro da Dodsworth.

[Carlos Lima]

Ola

Era previsto que os americanos fariam algo assim levando-se em consideracao a atitude do Chavez...

Talvez seja a hora do Brasil mostrar mais uma vez que consegue 'tomar conta desse quintal' sem precisar de intereferencias...

'E uma situacao delicada, pois somos um pais independente e em crescimento que quer continuar assim...

'E um jogo de xadrez interessante...

Agora 'e aguardar os proximos movimentos e analizar o que ganhamos e perdemos hoje e no futuro.

[]s
CB_Lima

[talharim]

Uma base conjunta de SSNs em Trindade seria interessante.O Tio Sam paga a conta claro.

[Barao Vermelho]

Caros Amigos,
Como vocês sempre tive uma certa restrição quanto aos Americanos, mas de uma olhada como esta o Japão, economia forte, bem armado etc..., com todas as restrições Americanas impostas desde a segunda guerra, algo que foi caindo com o tempo, se pudermos ter as mesmas condições que o Japão tem hoje, acham que seria ruim.
Já pensaram que podemos em poucos anos chegar ao nivel do Japão, e para isso basta termos o mesmo apoio financeiro que os Americanos dão a eles.

[Sintra]

Leiam o que vai abaixo com muita, mas mesmo muita atenção...

"It started with the Monroe Doctrine, but it was the timeless phrase President Theodore Roosevelt that nicely summarized Americas foreign policy towards South America... or was supposed to anyway. In reality, American foreign policy towards South America is complicated and can be legitimately argued as non-existent, at least the public coherent and explained policy anyway. It was around 1950 the American foreign policy attention span waned in South America, and arguably it continues to be poorly defined.

Ironically, it was 1950 when the US Navy folded the 4th fleet into the US 2nd fleet in Norfolk. Is that a coincidence? Perhaps, but the Great White Fleet started its journey by going to South America first, and that wasn't an accident. Today South America doesn't look anything like the South America of the Monroe Doctrine, President Theodore Roosevelt, or 1950. Today, South America is an emerging economic market the US needs to get engaged with diplomatically, and this little bit of news reflects that reality.



U.S. 4th Fleet, which hunted submarines in the South Atlantic during World War II until it was dissolved almost six decades ago, is on its way back.

The new 4th Fleet would cover a similar area, with plans to operate from Naval Station Mayport, Fla., and oversee operations in Central and South America. The commander of Naval Forces Southern Command would also be the head of 4th Fleet, Navy officials said.

The fleet would not own any ships. Instead, it would operate in the same way Navy forces do in the Persian Gulf region. In U.S. Central Command, one admiral serves as head of both Naval Forces Central Command and 5th Fleet. Therefore, the dual-hatted admiral in charge of 4th Fleet and NavSouth would be under the commander of Southern Command.

And when will the 4th Fleet stand up?


The decision to stand up the fleet, Navy officials said, is within the scope of the chief of naval operations, as changing ship home ports are. But a final go-ahead is still a ways off, though sources say the Navy’s leadership is actively working the issue and strongly in favor of the idea.

A final decision will not come until the Navy has briefed military and congressional leaders.

Sounds like we are still a few years off. We are not sure what to make of this, and expect, like AFRICOM, there is more to this story than what the early press stories reveal. Our initial reaction to this bit of news was sarcasm. Is this an inside move to create more staff positions? The thought crossed our mind, but it is more likely there is some good logic here.

There are regional players that can no longer be ignored. Brazil, for example, shouldn't be ignored. Brazil in 20 years could very easily be what India or China is today, a rising economic and military power. Brazil has a lot of problems to overcome to realize that potential, but the potential most certainly exists and the US is wise not to ignore it, and would be very wise to get engaged with Brazil on the level sooner rather than later.

Another regional player is Venezuela. Huge Chavez may be the darling of western socialists, but his military moves, particularly in regards to building paramilitary forces and questionable policies with assault rifles is troubling. Should Venezuela actually follow through and put 9 AIP submarines in the Caribbean Sea that would be a valid national security concern for a 4th fleet.

It is hard to tell exactly what the reasons are for this move, as it is still early in the process. Regardless, there has been a lot of attention given to South America, between Global Fleet Stations, hospital ship deployments, humanitarian missions, and Partnership deployments the Navy has certainly remained engaged without a numbered fleet.

Final thought: While we threw a bit of snark at this announcement as a first reaction, the best snark is here. It is an old entry, but reddog's comment is a classic!"

http://informationdissemination.blogspo ... urth+fleet



"If the 4th Fleet were comprised entirely of submarines it could not be more mysterious.


Fleet numbering was established in 1943, by Admiral Ernest King. Remember, it had been Capt. Ernest King who in 1923 had proposed distinguished uniform insignia (dolphins were later selected) for U.S. submariners.


A few years or ago, Hugo Chavez expressed his concerns that the U.S. was planning to invade Venezuela. Perhaps a war game had even been conducted offshore in his vicinity. The initials for Chavez's concern (invading venezuela), of course are IV, the roman numeral representing 4.


During WW2, the United States 4th Fleet was a major command of the United States Navy in the South Atlantic. The Fourth Fleet waged relentless war against raiders, blockade runners, and submarines in the South Atlantic. In April 1943 Fleet Air Wing 16 transferred from Norfolk to Natal, Brazil, to direct patrol plane antisubmarine operations under the Fourth Fleet in the South Atlantic. There can be no question that the 4th Fleet would have plans to invade Venezuela, if military action ever became necessary. Nothing is new about it.


Ever heard about a SEAL team that does not officially exist? In which theater did it concentrate
its operations that never took place? Me either.


Prior to 1950, the Fourth Fleet was allegedly absorbed into the Second Fleet. Was it? A curious reference to the 4TH FLEET IMAGERY INTERPRETATION UNIT (FIIU) is found here. Look hard enough and you will even come across Klingon and Imperial Japanese Navy 4th Fleets.


But none of that will ever help Hugo Chavez allay his most annoying suspicions. Sleep well, Hugo. We are all going to have to wait and see. The 4th Fleet is silent and strange, like submarines."

http://aquilinefocus.blogspot.com/2007/ ... tions.html

Abraços

[P44]

do texto acima^

" Brazil, for example, shouldn't be ignored. Brazil in 20 years could very easily be what India or China is today, a rising economic and military power. Brazil has a lot of problems to overcome to realize that potential, but the potential most certainly exists and the US is wise not to ignore it, and would be very wise to get engaged with Brazil on the level sooner rather than later.
"

Belos "amigos"....

[Brigadeiro]

Uma pergunta que tento fazer desde ontem à tarde (mas meu PC não deixou): Aquela história do Suriname tem algo a ver com isso?
Considerando que o Brasil quer (e tem) o domínio do Atlântico Sul, essa história de 4ª Frota não cheira muito bem não...

Até mais!

[Sintra]

Uma pergunta que tento fazer desde ontem à tarde (mas meu PC não deixou): Aquela história do Suriname tem algo a ver com isso?
Considerando que o Brasil quer (e tem) o domínio do Atlântico Sul, essa história de 4ª Frota não cheira muito bem não...

Até mais!

Brigadeiro

Não se engane, o Atlântico é um lago Norte Americano...

[soultrain]

E o Pacifico é a piscina.

[[]]'s

[Paisano]

Uma pergunta que tento fazer desde ontem à tarde (mas meu PC não deixou): Aquela história do Suriname tem algo a ver com isso?
Considerando que o Brasil quer (e tem) o domínio do Atlântico Sul, essa história de 4ª Frota não cheira muito bem não...

Até mais!

Brigadeiro

Não se engane, o Atlântico é um lago Norte Americano...

Por isso é que eu sou a favor da criação de uma outra base naval, mais precisamente em Natal, além do aumento no número de sub´s.

Com a base já existente no Rio controla-se-se a parte sul do AS e com a de Natal a parte norte.

O Brasil tem a obrigação de tornar muito perigosa a navegação nesse "lago".

[Brigadeiro]

O Brasil tem a obrigação de tornar muito perigosa a navegação nesse "lago".

2 X

Até mais!

[alcmartin]

É...acho que aqueles filminhos de F16 X U2 vão começar de novo, trocando por Su30 X SH...procurou, achou!

O galho é que esse povo costuma não perder a viagem... Os suecos que o digam. E tome "rojão de fogo"...

Esta é a minha preocupação, amigo AlcMartin. Tudo o que não queremos são americanos na região e o Chávez sabe disso. Logo podemos concluir que quem "ganha" com esta notícia é o Chapolin, pois colocou uma pedra em nossos sapatos.

Esta notícia é tão delicada que nos coloca no colo dos americanos, podendo inclusive influenciar fortemente a escolha de alguns equipamentos militares. A notícia é um recado muito claro pra nós brasileiros, mas disfarçada de "preocupações regionais com o Chávez". Dependendo do que conseguirmos comprar e do grau de transferência tecnológica que poderemos absorver...

Em suma, nenhuma potência deixa que outro país se transforme igualmente em potência, a história prova isso. Para ser uma potência (principalmente militar) é necessário "força bruta" (guerra) e não se transforma da noite para o dia. Não basta ter grana e economia forte (já disse isso aqui, é fácil "destruir" uma economia forte, principalmente se desarmada).

Se tem uma coisa que os americanos não se preocupam nem um pouco é com o Chávez. Se tem uma coisa que preocupa e muito os americanos é o Brasil com um economia indo de vento em popa e se armando, principalmente se for possível absorver conhecimentos e tecnologia, visto que já demonstramos competência para absorvê-la rapidamente e empregá-la em tempo recorde. Eles sabem que nosso maior problema é grana, mas havendo...

Na cabeça dos políticos americanos existe uma forma de minimizar todo este problema, obrigar o Brasil a se aliar (tudo documentado, claro) com eles, principalmente fazendo uso de equipamentos deles (que podem ser controlado).

Deixo para os colegas as conclusões finais, tenho que trabalhar.


Grande abraço,

Orestes

É vero, mestre...e cada vez fica mais claro que a decisão do Fx terá forte peso político.
Abs preocupados...

[alcmartin]

Leiam o que vai abaixo com muita, mas mesmo muita atenção...

"It started with the Monroe Doctrine, but it was the timeless phrase President Theodore Roosevelt that nicely summarized Americas foreign policy towards South America... or was supposed to anyway. In reality, American foreign policy towards South America is complicated and can be legitimately argued as non-existent, at least the public coherent and explained policy anyway. It was around 1950 the American foreign policy attention span waned in South America, and arguably it continues to be poorly defined.

Ironically, it was 1950 when the US Navy folded the 4th fleet into the US 2nd fleet in Norfolk. Is that a coincidence? Perhaps, but the Great White Fleet started its journey by going to South America first, and that wasn't an accident. Today South America doesn't look anything like the South America of the Monroe Doctrine, President Theodore Roosevelt, or 1950. Today, South America is an emerging economic market the US needs to get engaged with diplomatically, and this little bit of news reflects that reality.



U.S. 4th Fleet, which hunted submarines in the South Atlantic during World War II until it was dissolved almost six decades ago, is on its way back.

The new 4th Fleet would cover a similar area, with plans to operate from Naval Station Mayport, Fla., and oversee operations in Central and South America. The commander of Naval Forces Southern Command would also be the head of 4th Fleet, Navy officials said.

The fleet would not own any ships. Instead, it would operate in the same way Navy forces do in the Persian Gulf region. In U.S. Central Command, one admiral serves as head of both Naval Forces Central Command and 5th Fleet. Therefore, the dual-hatted admiral in charge of 4th Fleet and NavSouth would be under the commander of Southern Command.

And when will the 4th Fleet stand up?


The decision to stand up the fleet, Navy officials said, is within the scope of the chief of naval operations, as changing ship home ports are. But a final go-ahead is still a ways off, though sources say the Navy’s leadership is actively working the issue and strongly in favor of the idea.

A final decision will not come until the Navy has briefed military and congressional leaders.

Sounds like we are still a few years off. We are not sure what to make of this, and expect, like AFRICOM, there is more to this story than what the early press stories reveal. Our initial reaction to this bit of news was sarcasm. Is this an inside move to create more staff positions? The thought crossed our mind, but it is more likely there is some good logic here.

There are regional players that can no longer be ignored. Brazil, for example, shouldn't be ignored. Brazil in 20 years could very easily be what India or China is today, a rising economic and military power. Brazil has a lot of problems to overcome to realize that potential, but the potential most certainly exists and the US is wise not to ignore it, and would be very wise to get engaged with Brazil on the level sooner rather than later.
Another regional player is Venezuela. Huge Chavez may be the darling of western socialists, but his military moves, particularly in regards to building paramilitary forces and questionable policies with assault rifles is troubling. Should Venezuela actually follow through and put 9 AIP submarines in the Caribbean Sea that would be a valid national security concern for a 4th fleet.

It is hard to tell exactly what the reasons are for this move, as it is still early in the process. Regardless, there has been a lot of attention given to South America, between Global Fleet Stations, hospital ship deployments, humanitarian missions, and Partnership deployments the Navy has certainly remained engaged without a numbered fleet.

Final thought: While we threw a bit of snark at this announcement as a first reaction, the best snark is here. It is an old entry, but reddog's comment is a classic!"

http://informationdissemination.blogspo ... urth+fleet



"If the 4th Fleet were comprised entirely of submarines it could not be more mysterious.


Fleet numbering was established in 1943, by Admiral Ernest King. Remember, it had been Capt. Ernest King who in 1923 had proposed distinguished uniform insignia (dolphins were later selected) for U.S. submariners.


A few years or ago, Hugo Chavez expressed his concerns that the U.S. was planning to invade Venezuela. Perhaps a war game had even been conducted offshore in his vicinity. The initials for Chavez's concern (invading venezuela), of course are IV, the roman numeral representing 4.


During WW2, the United States 4th Fleet was a major command of the United States Navy in the South Atlantic. The Fourth Fleet waged relentless war against raiders, blockade runners, and submarines in the South Atlantic. In April 1943 Fleet Air Wing 16 transferred from Norfolk to Natal, Brazil, to direct patrol plane antisubmarine operations under the Fourth Fleet in the South Atlantic. There can be no question that the 4th Fleet would have plans to invade Venezuela, if military action ever became necessary. Nothing is new about it.


Ever heard about a SEAL team that does not officially exist? In which theater did it concentrate
its operations that never took place? Me either.


Prior to 1950, the Fourth Fleet was allegedly absorbed into the Second Fleet. Was it? A curious reference to the 4TH FLEET IMAGERY INTERPRETATION UNIT (FIIU) is found here. Look hard enough and you will even come across Klingon and Imperial Japanese Navy 4th Fleets.


But none of that will ever help Hugo Chavez allay his most annoying suspicions. Sleep well, Hugo. We are all going to have to wait and see. The 4th Fleet is silent and strange, like submarines."

http://aquilinefocus.blogspot.com/2007/ ... tions.html

Abraços

Belíssimo achado, Sintra!

Qual o Problema de os AMERICANOS terem uma base conjunta com nossa MB? só teriamos a aprender.

Com certeza ratos com o Mr. Joe não viveriam tanto tempo dentro da Dodsworth.

Morcegão, bom dia!

Não tem nada demais em ser aliado, ter bases com americanos, etc. DESDE que tenhamos a mesma visão pragmatica que eles tem, tão bem demonstrada no texto do Sintra. Ou seja, eles são amigos hoje, mas tem planos p/eventualidades amanhã.
O velho ditado do "um olho na missa e o outro no padre"...

O galho é que acho que tem um aspecto cultural aí...o povo daqui, do Brasil, não gosta disso: ou é amigo ou é inimigo,hehe...

Mas é realpolitik...cumprimenta sorrindo com uma mão e a outra atrás, com o porrete!

Abs traíras!