Fórum Defesa Brasil

Corsário01 escreveu:O fatos destes paises terem optado pelo 214 não quer dizer que o Scorpene seja ruim ou inferior.
Cada país tem que escolher o que lhe convém.
Parabéns pela escolha do 214 aos que o escolheram, mas, o Brasil escolheu outro. E ponto!

Marino escreveu:Vc se lembra do que eu postei na época?
Foi transcrito, se não me engano pelo CB Lima, recentemente.
Mas não precisa acreditar em mim.
Vamos deixar assim:
1) Brasil, Chile, India e Malásia encomendaram o Scorpene;
2) Turquia, Grecia, Coréia e Portugal (talvez o Paquistão) o 214.
Cada país fez sua escolha.

Mapinguari escreveu:

Corsário01 escreveu:O fatos destes paises terem optado pelo 214 não quer dizer que o Scorpene seja ruim ou inferior.
Cada país tem que escolher o que lhe convém.
Parabéns pela escolha do 214 aos que o escolheram, mas, o Brasil escolheu outro. E ponto!

Eu aceito as razões da MB, com certeza, principalmente no que se refere ao casco do Submarino Nuclear. Mas que o U214 é muito mais submarino do que o Scorpène, isso é. Não que o Scorpène seja ruim, claro. Trata-se de um submarino moderno também. Além disso, os alemães cagaram tudo, com relação aos contratos com a MB. Perderam. Deram-se muito mal. Pronto. Acabou. Vamos de Scorpène mesmo.

PRick escreveu:

Mapinguari escreveu: Eu aceito as razões da MB, com certeza, principalmente no que se refere ao casco do Submarino Nuclear. Mas que o U214 é muito mais submarino do que o Scorpène, isso é. Não que o Scorpène seja ruim, claro. Trata-se de um submarino moderno também. Além disso, os alemães cagaram tudo, com relação aos contratos com a MB. Perderam. Deram-se muito mal. Pronto. Acabou. Vamos de Scorpène mesmo.

O Scorpene é baseado num casco de submarino nuclear, o tipo 214 é baseado no casco do 209, não existe o que comparar, os requisitos de um SNA são muito superiores a qualquer submarino convencional, o aço usado no Scorpene é aguenta mais pressão, ele é muito mais novo, portanto, vou deixar claro, perto do Scorpene o 214 é um submarino maquiano, e deve ser muito menos resistentes a danos de combate.

[]´s

Indian Submarine Battle : Scorpene vs U-214
________________________________________
Scorpene In Rough Sea

German class 214 submarine enters the fray with a hard to resist offer
FORCE May-2005
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The ‘almost done deal' for acquiring six Scorpene-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth almost US$2 billion for the Indian Navy now certainly appears to be in jeopardy, as the German Submarine Consortium (GSC) last month made a hard-to-refuse offer for supplying an equal number of Type 214 SSKs along with a related package for upgrading the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that were acquired from the GSC in the 1980s. To make the offer extremely attractive, GSC has proposed the following:

The Type 214 SSKs are being offered at prices 30 per cent cheaper than the Scorpenes.

State-owned, Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks (MDL), which has so far licence-built two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, will be trained and equipped by the GSC to licence-build the Type 214s within a six-month period following contract signature.

GSC will have an industrial tie-up with MDL to enable the latter to independently undertake the mid-life refits of the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that will include the installation of self-contained ‘hull modules' that will house fuel-cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems similar to the ones on board the Class 214 SSK.

GSC will give the navy total flexibility to choose, install and integrate the Type 214 SSK's combat management system; guided-weapons; optronic periscopes; tactical data links; SATCOM and VLF communications suites; search radar; electronic warfare (EW) suite; and the sonar suite that will include a cylindrical array sonar for medium-frequency passive detection, flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection, thin line active/passive towed-array for low-frequency determination of target range and bearing of hostile submarines, an intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface warships, and an active high-frequency mine detection sonar.




It is believed that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is favourably disposed to GSC's offer due to the following reasons:

Unlike the Scorpene, which is equipped and armed with sensors and systems made only by France (by Armaris, THALES, SAGEM and MBDA) and Spain (IZAR), the Type 214 SSK is being offered with a choice of weapons and sensors from different countries. This means the SSK will be able to fire the Russian Novator-built 3M54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) and its 3M-14E land-attack variant, which is well-liked by the navy and is currently operational with at least four of the navy's upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs.

The Scorpene SSK, although ordered by Chile (two) and Malaysia (two), does not yet have an operational AIP system. Armaris is still developing the steam turbine-based ‘MESMA' (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. In contrast, the fuel-cell-based AIP system developed by the GSC and Siemens is currently operational with the navies of Germany and Italy.

GSC's offer of ‘helping enable' MDL to upgrade in-country the navy's four 1,850-ton Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, which will approach the end of their operational lives between 2016 and 2024, is something Armaris of France cannot match. The navy too regards the mid-life upgrade of these four SSKs an operational necessity.

The fuel-cell-based AIP system of the Class 214 SSK is similar in design and operating concept to the Kristall-27E AIP of the Russian Amur 1650-class SSK, six of which will be licence-built for the navy by Larsen & Toubro Ltd and be armed with BrahMos vertically-launched, multi-role supersonic cruise missiles (see FORCE November 2004, page 22). This will help greatly reduce the life-cycle costs of both the Type 214 and the Amur 1650 SSK fleets.

The Type 214 SSK is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene's 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK's buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10 per cent. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing ASCMs. Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas' DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo.

Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days.

The navy's Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs were ordered on 11 December 1981. The first two SSKs (S-44 Shishumar and S-45 Shankush) were built by HDW and were inducted into service on 22 September and 20 November 1986, respectively. The remaining two (S-46 Shalki and S-47 Shankul) were licence-built by MDL and entered service on 7 February 1992 and 28 May 1994.

DELTA22 escreveu:

Marino escreveu:Vc se lembra do que eu postei na época?
Foi transcrito, se não me engano pelo CB Lima, recentemente.
Mas não precisa acreditar em mim.
Vamos deixar assim:
1) Brasil, Chile, India e Malásia encomendaram o Scorpene;
2) Turquia, Grecia, Coréia e Portugal (talvez o Paquistão) o 214.
Cada país fez sua escolha.

Estimado Marino,

Ultimamente ando meio intrigado com algumas ações, e ando pensando muito e tentando encontrar algumas respostas e uma delas é essa questão. Não compreendo bem esta ação da MB, visto que antes já era dada como certa a compra dos 214 e o que ocorreu no fim foi uma mudança muito repentina. Me parece que a questão é tratada de forma diferente ao "bel prazer" do comandante da Marinha que está no cargo em determinada época. Uma dependencia que, no meu ponto de vista, em nada contribui com o planejamento futuro da força.

Quero esclarecer que não sou contra o acordo com a França, até porque não sabemos qual será o futuro deste acordo, já que pelo que se percebe, estes "acordos" dependem mais do comandante que esteja de plantão do que planejamento propriamente dito, mas enfim, será interessante esperar pra ver.

Uma coisa já pude perceber e de certa forma concordar com você, tudo é uma questão de "escolha", não importa se boa ou ruim...
Neste momento, meu pensamento sobre este assunto passou de um comportamento conformista, pois já havia "digerido" esta questão, para um critico e, sendo assim, nada me impede que brevemente venha aqui e me proclame um maluco, enganado, sem noção e reconhecer que estava errado, no entando, por enquanto, não posso "bater o martelo" sobre este assunto.

Um abraço.

JLRC escreveu:

luis F. Silva escreveu: Escolheram aquele igual aos dos chilenos e que há dois anos aqui no DB não prestavam?

Tiraste-me as palavras da boca

P44 escreveu:Para "contribuir para o debate", um artigo de 2005....

Indian Submarine Battle : Scorpene vs U-214
________________________________________
Scorpene In Rough Sea

German class 214 submarine enters the fray with a hard to resist offer
FORCE May-2005
By Prasun K. Sengupta

The ‘almost done deal' for acquiring six Scorpene-class diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth almost US$2 billion for the Indian Navy now certainly appears to be in jeopardy, as the German Submarine Consortium (GSC) last month made a hard-to-refuse offer for supplying an equal number of Type 214 SSKs along with a related package for upgrading the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that were acquired from the GSC in the 1980s. To make the offer extremely attractive, GSC has proposed the following:

The Type 214 SSKs are being offered at prices 30 per cent cheaper than the Scorpenes.

State-owned, Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks (MDL), which has so far licence-built two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, will be trained and equipped by the GSC to licence-build the Type 214s within a six-month period following contract signature.

GSC will have an industrial tie-up with MDL to enable the latter to independently undertake the mid-life refits of the navy's existing four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that will include the installation of self-contained ‘hull modules' that will house fuel-cell-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems similar to the ones on board the Class 214 SSK.

GSC will give the navy total flexibility to choose, install and integrate the Type 214 SSK's combat management system; guided-weapons; optronic periscopes; tactical data links; SATCOM and VLF communications suites; search radar; electronic warfare (EW) suite; and the sonar suite that will include a cylindrical array sonar for medium-frequency passive detection, flank array sonar for low/medium-frequency detection, thin line active/passive towed-array for low-frequency determination of target range and bearing of hostile submarines, an intercept array sonar for detection of active emissions of surface warships, and an active high-frequency mine detection sonar.




It is believed that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is favourably disposed to GSC's offer due to the following reasons:

Unlike the Scorpene, which is equipped and armed with sensors and systems made only by France (by Armaris, THALES, SAGEM and MBDA) and Spain (IZAR), the Type 214 SSK is being offered with a choice of weapons and sensors from different countries. This means the SSK will be able to fire the Russian Novator-built 3M54E Klub-S supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) and its 3M-14E land-attack variant, which is well-liked by the navy and is currently operational with at least four of the navy's upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs.

The Scorpene SSK, although ordered by Chile (two) and Malaysia (two), does not yet have an operational AIP system. Armaris is still developing the steam turbine-based ‘MESMA' (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. In contrast, the fuel-cell-based AIP system developed by the GSC and Siemens is currently operational with the navies of Germany and Italy.

GSC's offer of ‘helping enable' MDL to upgrade in-country the navy's four 1,850-ton Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, which will approach the end of their operational lives between 2016 and 2024, is something Armaris of France cannot match. The navy too regards the mid-life upgrade of these four SSKs an operational necessity.

The fuel-cell-based AIP system of the Class 214 SSK is similar in design and operating concept to the Kristall-27E AIP of the Russian Amur 1650-class SSK, six of which will be licence-built for the navy by Larsen & Toubro Ltd and be armed with BrahMos vertically-launched, multi-role supersonic cruise missiles (see FORCE November 2004, page 22). This will help greatly reduce the life-cycle costs of both the Type 214 and the Amur 1650 SSK fleets.

The Type 214 SSK is derived from the Type 212 SSK, four of which have begun entering service with the German Navy and were built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden, both members of the GSC. The two Type 212s ordered by the Italian Navy are being licence-built by Fincantieri. The Greek Navy has ordered four Type 214 SSKs, while South Korea has ordered three Type 214 SSKs that are being licence-built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of more than 400 metres (more than 1,400 feet), compared to the Scorpene's 300 metres. Its hull length is 65 metres and displacement is 1,700 tonnes. Built of austenitic steel (HY-80 and HY-100), the SSK's buoyancy reserve is in excess of 10 per cent. Four of its eight torpedo launch tubes (equipped with a water ram expulsion system) are capable of firing ASCMs. Heavyweight torpedoes used by the Type 214 SSK include the Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei-built Black Shark or STN Atlas' DM2A4 dual purpose, wire-guided heavy torpedo.

Propulsion is provided by two MTU-built 16V396 diesel-electric engines (2,000 kW) serving a 600-900V propulsion battery with a fully integrated auxiliary AIP system based on two PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) 120kW fuel-cell modules. The propulsion motor is a Siemens Permasyn (Type FR6439-3900KW) low-speed permanently excited electric motor driving a low-noise, skewback 7-blade propeller. Using the AIP system on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the Type 214 SSK to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 Knots. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ Knots are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50-day mission. At a speed of 6 Knots the mission range is almost 12,000nm, while the maximum endurance is 84 days.

The navy's Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs were ordered on 11 December 1981. The first two SSKs (S-44 Shishumar and S-45 Shankush) were built by HDW and were inducted into service on 22 September and 20 November 1986, respectively. The remaining two (S-46 Shalki and S-47 Shankul) were licence-built by MDL and entered service on 7 February 1992 and 28 May 1994.

Marino escreveu:A questão é simples: um protótipo possui imenso risco de ocorrer algum problema.
Ocorreu no protótipo grego e no protótipo chileno.
As unidades seguintes, com a detecção e correção dos problemas ocorridos nos primeiros da série, não apresentam problemas.
Por causa do risco do protótipo, os chilenos obtiveram um imenso desconto ao comprar o scorpene, além de royalties por outras unidades vendidas.
Antes que digam que vamos pagar royalties, lembrem de que o nosso é "tipo" scorpene, não um scorpene fabricado em conjunto pela França/Espanha. Nosso contrato é com a França. Eles que se entendam.