Tulio, o isolamento depende muito da aerea onde a aeronave cai.
Naquela foi possivel fazer um isolamento total, nessa não.
A ideia é a mesma que a pericia criminal usa, evitar "contaminação" da aerea e dos destroços.
Super Tucano News
Moderadores: Glauber Prestes, Conselho de Moderação
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WSANTANA
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Re: Super Tucano News
Prezados,
Os ST voltaram a voar. Me parece num ritmo menor. Hj identifiquei o voo de apenas 04 aeronaves em diferentes passagens.
Saudações Fraternais.
wsantana.
Os ST voltaram a voar. Me parece num ritmo menor. Hj identifiquei o voo de apenas 04 aeronaves em diferentes passagens.
Saudações Fraternais.
wsantana.
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Penguin
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Re: Super Tucano News
Sempre e inevitavelmente, cada um de nós subestima o número de indivíduos estúpidos que circulam pelo mundo.
Carlo M. Cipolla
Carlo M. Cipolla
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Penguin
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Re: Super Tucano News
“All Else is Rubbish”
http://www.sldforum.com/2011/05/all-else-is-rubbish/
By Ed Timperlake
May 16, 2011
Clarifying the continuing public debate about the AT-6 versus Super Tucano selection for the Afghan AF is important for the overall success of U.S. international diplomacy in the worldwide aviation market.
There is a saying that can be recognized by all USAF, USN and USMC combat aviators that after engaging in a practice Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) engagement — whomever ever first gets to the briefing board wins.
In other words, who ever first frames the debrief makes sure it favors the outcome desired-which is almost always “I won.” There is absolutely nothing wrong with strong, capable, well-trained fearless egos doing what ever it takes in arguing tactics and technology to enhance their knowledge to fight and win in the air.
Recognizing how important it is to not make the debriefing session spiral off track, The Navy Fighter Weapon School, “Top Gun,” created a technique called “Goods” and “Others.” It was an approach with much merit.
Applying the same technique to the current and very public debate over the US Air Force’s selection of a Light Air Support (LAS) aircraft for the emerging Afghan National Army Air Corps might prove enlightening. And remembering that this is a non-developmental contract competition is always useful to keep in mind.
First, asking any aviator “platform centric” arguments can get robust and emotional. So both aircraft in consideration, the AT-6 and Super Tucano have strong advocates. It is also understandable that a lot of Air Force pilots would have fond memories of their time spent learning to fly in the T-6. The AT-6 is a derivative of that basic trainer. This is just like the fond feelings a lot of Naval Aviators have for the T-34 Mentor the, Navy’s basic trainer, which was their first step in the journey to Navy Wings of Gold.
The AT-6 versus Super Tucano-“Goods” and “Others”
A huge “Good”—is that a selection for a light attack aircraft for Afghanistan is finally in works.
“Others” –Typical anonymous and staff-driven Congressional meddling in the last Congress stopped a program to introduce such an asset into Afghanistan to support our forces.
The program was called “Imminent Fury”
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=6669
“Good”-Three of the best Combat Generals in the US 21st Century Military, General’s Mattis, McCrystal and Petraeus all wanted a light attack aircraft immediately for combat.
“Others”- Kansas (where Hawker Beech builds the T-6) interests in Congress slow rolled the Request For Forces (RFF) because the AT-6 was still in development and wasn’t ready for a combat role which remains true today.
But now, first a word about combat requirements and the role of LAS is necessary.
A truly legendary fighter pilot said almost a Century ago that; “The duty of the fighter pilot is to patrol his area of the sky, and shoot down any enemy fighters in that area. All else is rubbish.”
Baron Manfred von Richthofen, 1917. “Richtofen would not let members of his Staffel strafe troops in the trenches.”
He was right about killing any enemy threat in the air being first and foremost. The USAF along with Navy and Marine fighter pilots have always quested to establish total air dominance.
The history of American success in this effort was paid for in the fights to the death in the Pacific and Europe in WWII, to MIG-Alley in Korea and the sky above North Vietnam. However, one fact often taken for granted from combat in Desert Storm is that in today’s fight in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya the US and its allies own the air.
Historically, Air Dominance is very fragile because in tactical aviation technology is always moving forward in an action/reaction cycle against equally reactive enemies. Currently if American political leaders retain the political will power to field the emerging “Hi-Hi” mix of fighters, the F-22 and the F-35, in sufficient numbers, America and allied nations will rule the skies for a generation. (http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=7742).
For the Red Baron, keeping his squadron focused on the air battle was important for his day. However, with Air Dominance established in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya shifting air power focus to support troops on the ground by strafing, and launching precision guided munitions to kill the enemy is also the pilots duty — and “All else is rubbish.”
Because of U.S. current ownership of the air in Afghanistan, there is a tremendous opportunity for introducing a war-tipping asset in the fight on the ground, and that is a light attack aircraft.
The Deputy US/NATO commander, whose combat assignment, was building out the surge airfield in Kandahar Afghanistan into the largest single runway operation in the world explained this important tactical opportunity. He was interviewed by Second Line of Defense http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=18392).
Now back to the AT-6 Vs Super Tucano “Goods and Others “debate–
“Others” –The “Afghan Light-Attack Plane Competition to Culminate with Major Flyoff –Few changes in updated requirements” (Inside the Air Force 07/30/2010)
But the reality seems to be not quite so. There seem to be changing requirements in play. “One important change is that the “standard LAS combat mission” calls for the aircraft to strafe an enemy target with its .50-caliber machine guns while carrying two 500-pound GBU-12 bombs. In the previous requirements document, the standard mission called for releasing one of the two GBU-12s, then strafing.
The change is critical because performing a strafing mission with two large bombs – which weigh more than 1,200 pounds when guidance systems are factored in – puts a great amount of stress on a small airframe, according to defense observers. The aircraft would need adequate power to pull up while carrying the extra bomb during a strafing run.”
A portion of the test was apparently eliminated, under controlled conditions that are otherwise done on a routine basis by relatively less-experienced Colombian Air Force aircrews in combat against FARC.
An apparent attempt as well to minimize the need for strafing was made in the test process as well. The Super T has an internal gun and test fights of the AT-6 with an external gun pod were reported as being “bumpy”—the “pray and spray” tactic.
To summarize the good and others on the “Attack” capability in the LAS competition – The “good” is the Super Tucano is a proven combat aircraft the “others” is that AT-6 is not. http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=11834
Now on to the “S” for “Support” in LAS.
“Good” Supporters of the AT-6 have been emphaszing the “S” for support in talking about all aspects of the AT-6 future combat surveillance and electronic networking capability. It is obvious yet again an attempt is being made to try to shift the debate since as is pointed out there is no operational “A” for Attack in the AT-6. So as the saying goes they are making lemonade.
But there still exists a HUGE “Others.”
Unfortunately, for the AT-6, the aircraft has bumped into some laws of aerodynamics that were recently pointed out by the very knowledgeable and prestigious Association of Old Crows.
The Association of Old Crows (AOC) sponsored a symposium in Arlington in May 2011 on the AT-6. And they were very direct:
No RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) installed.
Significant weight and balance (CG) and overall weight challenges associated with MWS (Missile warning System) installation
Aircraft is tail heavy; ballast had to be installed forward to re-align CG
Ballast detracts from overall aircraft payload
To summarize:
The Super Tucano is a proven combat aircraft that is currently killing Communists and drug baron; and
The AT-6 is not yet certified to drop ordnance and pays a price in support in just trying to defend itself in a limited threat environment.
http://www.sldforum.com/2011/05/all-else-is-rubbish/
By Ed Timperlake
May 16, 2011
Clarifying the continuing public debate about the AT-6 versus Super Tucano selection for the Afghan AF is important for the overall success of U.S. international diplomacy in the worldwide aviation market.
There is a saying that can be recognized by all USAF, USN and USMC combat aviators that after engaging in a practice Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) engagement — whomever ever first gets to the briefing board wins.
In other words, who ever first frames the debrief makes sure it favors the outcome desired-which is almost always “I won.” There is absolutely nothing wrong with strong, capable, well-trained fearless egos doing what ever it takes in arguing tactics and technology to enhance their knowledge to fight and win in the air.
Recognizing how important it is to not make the debriefing session spiral off track, The Navy Fighter Weapon School, “Top Gun,” created a technique called “Goods” and “Others.” It was an approach with much merit.
Applying the same technique to the current and very public debate over the US Air Force’s selection of a Light Air Support (LAS) aircraft for the emerging Afghan National Army Air Corps might prove enlightening. And remembering that this is a non-developmental contract competition is always useful to keep in mind.
First, asking any aviator “platform centric” arguments can get robust and emotional. So both aircraft in consideration, the AT-6 and Super Tucano have strong advocates. It is also understandable that a lot of Air Force pilots would have fond memories of their time spent learning to fly in the T-6. The AT-6 is a derivative of that basic trainer. This is just like the fond feelings a lot of Naval Aviators have for the T-34 Mentor the, Navy’s basic trainer, which was their first step in the journey to Navy Wings of Gold.
The AT-6 versus Super Tucano-“Goods” and “Others”
A huge “Good”—is that a selection for a light attack aircraft for Afghanistan is finally in works.
“Others” –Typical anonymous and staff-driven Congressional meddling in the last Congress stopped a program to introduce such an asset into Afghanistan to support our forces.
The program was called “Imminent Fury”
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=6669
“Good”-Three of the best Combat Generals in the US 21st Century Military, General’s Mattis, McCrystal and Petraeus all wanted a light attack aircraft immediately for combat.
“Others”- Kansas (where Hawker Beech builds the T-6) interests in Congress slow rolled the Request For Forces (RFF) because the AT-6 was still in development and wasn’t ready for a combat role which remains true today.
But now, first a word about combat requirements and the role of LAS is necessary.
A truly legendary fighter pilot said almost a Century ago that; “The duty of the fighter pilot is to patrol his area of the sky, and shoot down any enemy fighters in that area. All else is rubbish.”
Baron Manfred von Richthofen, 1917. “Richtofen would not let members of his Staffel strafe troops in the trenches.”
He was right about killing any enemy threat in the air being first and foremost. The USAF along with Navy and Marine fighter pilots have always quested to establish total air dominance.
The history of American success in this effort was paid for in the fights to the death in the Pacific and Europe in WWII, to MIG-Alley in Korea and the sky above North Vietnam. However, one fact often taken for granted from combat in Desert Storm is that in today’s fight in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya the US and its allies own the air.
Historically, Air Dominance is very fragile because in tactical aviation technology is always moving forward in an action/reaction cycle against equally reactive enemies. Currently if American political leaders retain the political will power to field the emerging “Hi-Hi” mix of fighters, the F-22 and the F-35, in sufficient numbers, America and allied nations will rule the skies for a generation. (http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=7742).
For the Red Baron, keeping his squadron focused on the air battle was important for his day. However, with Air Dominance established in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya shifting air power focus to support troops on the ground by strafing, and launching precision guided munitions to kill the enemy is also the pilots duty — and “All else is rubbish.”
Because of U.S. current ownership of the air in Afghanistan, there is a tremendous opportunity for introducing a war-tipping asset in the fight on the ground, and that is a light attack aircraft.
The Deputy US/NATO commander, whose combat assignment, was building out the surge airfield in Kandahar Afghanistan into the largest single runway operation in the world explained this important tactical opportunity. He was interviewed by Second Line of Defense http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=18392).
Now back to the AT-6 Vs Super Tucano “Goods and Others “debate–
“Others” –The “Afghan Light-Attack Plane Competition to Culminate with Major Flyoff –Few changes in updated requirements” (Inside the Air Force 07/30/2010)
But the reality seems to be not quite so. There seem to be changing requirements in play. “One important change is that the “standard LAS combat mission” calls for the aircraft to strafe an enemy target with its .50-caliber machine guns while carrying two 500-pound GBU-12 bombs. In the previous requirements document, the standard mission called for releasing one of the two GBU-12s, then strafing.
The change is critical because performing a strafing mission with two large bombs – which weigh more than 1,200 pounds when guidance systems are factored in – puts a great amount of stress on a small airframe, according to defense observers. The aircraft would need adequate power to pull up while carrying the extra bomb during a strafing run.”
A portion of the test was apparently eliminated, under controlled conditions that are otherwise done on a routine basis by relatively less-experienced Colombian Air Force aircrews in combat against FARC.
An apparent attempt as well to minimize the need for strafing was made in the test process as well. The Super T has an internal gun and test fights of the AT-6 with an external gun pod were reported as being “bumpy”—the “pray and spray” tactic.
To summarize the good and others on the “Attack” capability in the LAS competition – The “good” is the Super Tucano is a proven combat aircraft the “others” is that AT-6 is not. http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=11834
Now on to the “S” for “Support” in LAS.
“Good” Supporters of the AT-6 have been emphaszing the “S” for support in talking about all aspects of the AT-6 future combat surveillance and electronic networking capability. It is obvious yet again an attempt is being made to try to shift the debate since as is pointed out there is no operational “A” for Attack in the AT-6. So as the saying goes they are making lemonade.
But there still exists a HUGE “Others.”
Unfortunately, for the AT-6, the aircraft has bumped into some laws of aerodynamics that were recently pointed out by the very knowledgeable and prestigious Association of Old Crows.
The Association of Old Crows (AOC) sponsored a symposium in Arlington in May 2011 on the AT-6. And they were very direct:
No RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) installed.
Significant weight and balance (CG) and overall weight challenges associated with MWS (Missile warning System) installation
Aircraft is tail heavy; ballast had to be installed forward to re-align CG
Ballast detracts from overall aircraft payload
To summarize:
The Super Tucano is a proven combat aircraft that is currently killing Communists and drug baron; and
The AT-6 is not yet certified to drop ordnance and pays a price in support in just trying to defend itself in a limited threat environment.
Sempre e inevitavelmente, cada um de nós subestima o número de indivíduos estúpidos que circulam pelo mundo.
Carlo M. Cipolla
Carlo M. Cipolla
-
Carlos Lima
- Sênior
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Re: Super Tucano News
Me lembro que citei a umas páginas atrás sobre um pessoal aqui de ribá que viu o S Tucano nos testes e para eles não há outra solução.
O problema do S Tucano nessa concorrência não está nos céus e nos testes... o problema está no Congresso Americano.
Como o pessoal aqui de ribá já disse... não tem outra aeronave que hoje possa realizar o tipo de missão que o S Tucano faz melhor do que ele.
[]s
CB_Lima
O problema do S Tucano nessa concorrência não está nos céus e nos testes... o problema está no Congresso Americano.
Como o pessoal aqui de ribá já disse... não tem outra aeronave que hoje possa realizar o tipo de missão que o S Tucano faz melhor do que ele.
[]s
CB_Lima
CB_Lima = Carlos Lima 
-
Carlos Mathias
Re: Super Tucano News
Sempre está aí, em quase em todas as transações deles.o problema está no Congresso Americano.
As vezes é a solução também, né?
É o congresso que autoriza as montanhas de dinheiro gastas por eles em "defesa".
Re: Super Tucano News
viewtopic.php?p=5150012#p5150012
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=19244An Update on Women and the Super Tucano
05/28/2011 By Robbin Laird
In an earlier piece, our colleague discussed the political silly season in Washington DC evidenced by the quality of the “debate” about a developmental aircraft versus a non-developmental aircraft for a non-developmental contract.
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=17758
One of the supporters of the developmental aircraft suggested that the Super Tucano, which is the aircraft ready, now (remember how well this worked in the air tanker campaign where being ready now is not really significant as it used to be in my youth) was somehow biased against the physique of women.
Now I have had a virtual lifetime interest in the physique of women and found this of interest.
As Ed noted: To imply some how using female ergonomics arguments that a nation with a Female President is not building an attack aircraft for female pilots is amazing. The US still does not have a female President. But the old saying still works—a picture is worth a thousand words- Picking a fight with Brazil over women is also not the way to go.
And then Ed provided us with a picture of a female ST pilot which certainly seemed to rest his case.
In Second Line of Defense’s tireless quest for truth for our readers, I was able to track down a Portuguese pilot with ST experience. And in intense discussions on this and other issues, I asked this young lady whether she had had difficulty fitting her torso into the ST. She assured me she did not and commented that the ST was a terrific aircraft for men too!
I enclose her picture to substantiate my tireless field work.
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Carlos Lima
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NovaTO
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Re: Super Tucano News
Gostei da última frase: It is the low-risk e high-value option must be selected
Vamos aguardar..quem sabe...
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cabeça de martelo
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Re: Super Tucano News
Na foto aparece o que me parece ser a actual comandante da esquadrilha de C-295 M da FAP. Eu não sabia que ele tinha feito o tirocinio no Brasil. 
Sei de vários outros casos (inclusiver de uma cadete loira, que já coloquei a foto dela várias vezes no fórum).![8-]](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif "Cool")
Sei de vários outros casos (inclusiver de uma cadete loira, que já coloquei a foto dela várias vezes no fórum).
"Lá nos confins da Península Ibérica, existe um povo que não governa nem se deixa governar ”, Caio Júlio César, líder Militar Romano".
O insulto é a arma dos fracos...
O insulto é a arma dos fracos...
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WSANTANA
- Júnior
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Re: Super Tucano News
Prezados,
Após uma aparente redução nas operções nas duas semans seguintes ao triste acidente, os ST voam como nunca sobre Natal. Chama a atenção o elevado número de operações noturnas.
Forte Abraço.
wsantana.
Após uma aparente redução nas operções nas duas semans seguintes ao triste acidente, os ST voam como nunca sobre Natal. Chama a atenção o elevado número de operações noturnas.
Forte Abraço.
wsantana.
-
binfa
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Re: Super Tucano News
Estão se preparando para a operação Guiana Freedom!
att, binfa
DOE VIDA, DOE MEDULA!
REgistro Nacional de DOadores de MEdula nº 1.256.762
UMA VIDA SEM DESAFIOS NÃO VALE A PENA SER VIVIDA. Sócrates
Depoimento ABRALE
http://www.abrale.org.br/apoio_paciente ... php?id=771
DOE VIDA, DOE MEDULA!
REgistro Nacional de DOadores de MEdula nº 1.256.762
UMA VIDA SEM DESAFIOS NÃO VALE A PENA SER VIVIDA. Sócrates
Depoimento ABRALE
http://www.abrale.org.br/apoio_paciente ... php?id=771-
talharim
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Re: Super Tucano News
Pode vir noticia boa da Indonesia uma encomenda adicional significativa.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French
one behind me."
General George S. Patton.
one behind me."
General George S. Patton.
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Túlio
- Site Admin
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Re: Super Tucano News
binfa escreveu:Estão se preparando para a operação Guiana Freedom!
![[003]](./images/smilies/003.gif "Gargalhada"){kind=small}
“Look at these people. Wandering around with absolutely no idea what's about to happen.”
P. Sullivan (Margin Call, 2011)
P. Sullivan (Margin Call, 2011)
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WalterGaudério
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Re: Super Tucano News
talharim escreveu:Pode vir noticia boa da Indonesia uma encomenda adicional significativa.
Pois é. Tb estou esperando por isso. Vamos torcer.( e não é só a Indonésia não...
![[005]](./images/smilies/005.gif){kind=small}
)Só há 2 tipos de navios: os submarinos e os alvos...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...