Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

Área para discussão de Assuntos Gerais e off-topics.

Moderador: Conselho de Moderação

Qual a nacionalidade favorita do seu carro ?

Japonesa
89
34%
Americana
29
11%
Européia
118
46%
Francesa, esses covardes (Talha mode)
23
9%
 
Total de votos: 259

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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5806 Mensagem por Bourne » Sáb Out 24, 2015 10:45 am

Te digo que muitos ainda vão comprar o sanderão versão pick-up e ainda achar que tem um legitimo carro de trabalho, robusto e equiparável à ford ranger.

Podes rir mas lhes digo que já foi muito pior. Nos idos tempos em que a nova classe média bombava, o mercado passou a ter os "aventureiros travestidos". Isto é, carro comum cheio de plásticos e vendidos mais caros, tudo bem que com uma suspensão um pouco mais alta e o sistema de bloqueio. por exemplo, o toyota etios, pensado para os indianos e vendido para brasileiros, ganhou sua versão cheia de plásticos.

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Sou de uma família de camponeses, ainda com algumas ligações econômicas com o campo, e titio e papai com construção e transporte, mas nenhum membro fez a loucura de comprar uma kinem (ki nem é carro, nem é picape e faz mau as duas tarefas).

Ainda penso sobre quem compra a Oroch, o sanderão estendido:

:arrow: Para trabalho pesado será destruído em poucas semanas. Já que pick-up de verdade como Ford Ranger, Toyota Hillux e outras não duram muito para transportar carga e enfrentar situações severas.

:arrow: Para andar na cidade é uma desgraça por que não cabe em lugar nenhum. É como ter um Ford Fusion sem o mesmo conforto e desempenho.

:arrow: E, se precisar de um carro desses, chega no preço da versão gasolina da Ford Ranger. Além de quem comprar tender a ser pessoa jurídica e poder ganhar descontão e condições especiais de financiamento.




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5807 Mensagem por cabeça de martelo » Sáb Out 24, 2015 11:58 am

Mas faz vista, até ias parecer um fazendeiro... :twisted:

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Agora lembrei-me dos tempos em que se fazia boas telenovelas no Brasil.




"Lá nos confins da Península Ibérica, existe um povo que não governa nem se deixa governar ”, Caio Júlio César, líder Militar Romano".

Portugal está morto e enterrado!!!

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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5808 Mensagem por Bourne » Sáb Out 24, 2015 2:32 pm

Está falando é dos agroboy ou jacuboy. :twisted:

Os mesmo foram homenageados pela Nissan alguns anos atrás.





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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5809 Mensagem por cabeça de martelo » Sáb Out 24, 2015 2:37 pm

Então, isso faz mesmo o teu estilo... 8-] :mrgreen:




"Lá nos confins da Península Ibérica, existe um povo que não governa nem se deixa governar ”, Caio Júlio César, líder Militar Romano".

Portugal está morto e enterrado!!!

https://i.postimg.cc/QdsVdRtD/exwqs.jpg
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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5810 Mensagem por Bourne » Sáb Out 24, 2015 8:01 pm

Cabeça, meu jovem.

Tu tem que implicar comigo por gostar de Peugeot e, inclusive, introduzido esse carro afeminado na família como um todo. Depois, consegui empurrar o 206 para papai, um tio pegou uma 308 novo para substituir o Jetta VW. Ainda, por alguma influência obscura, um outro maluco noivo de uma prima comprou o 207.

No entanto, como a Peugeot vai de mal à pior no país, temo que ela abandone o br huehue a qualquer momento, desisti da marca. Além de não ter nada que me agrade na Citroen e Dacia Renault, vou assumir a missão de introduzir os carros japoneses, mais especificamente, o Nissan Sentra.

Nada de Toyota é que para maiores de 75 anos e nem de cortadores de grama Honda. :mrgreen: :lol:




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5811 Mensagem por J.Ricardo » Seg Out 26, 2015 11:44 am

O que mais me desagrada na Toyota é preço, deve ser o país mais lucrativo para eles, é simplesmente absurdo o preço cobrado por um Corola.

Mas concordo com o Bourne, o Nissan Sentra me agrada muito, sempre gostei do Ford Focus, mas ele alteram demais o desenho do carro.




Não temais ímpias falanges,
Que apresentam face hostil,
Vossos peitos, vossos braços,
São muralhas do Brasil!
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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5812 Mensagem por Bourne » Seg Out 26, 2015 9:16 pm

Pasmem senhores, olhem está aberração.

É o mesmo erro de lançar o 206 maquiado e vender como 207 lá em 2009/2010. Na época a estratégia matou o carro e a participação no mercado da francesada e foi o começo da decadência. Ainda que na época o mercado nacional estava bombando e os consumidores procuravam carros diferenciados e atualizados com o que se vendia no exterior. A parcela que poderia se interessar pelo carro da Peugeot pulou para outros modelos.

A marca ficou tão queimada que nem trazendo o 208 salvou. Apesar de ser um bom carro, não vende nem perto do irmãozinho C3 ou do concorrente direto que seria o Ford Fiesta. O último lançamento, o 2008 que é um ótimo carro, virou um mico e atolou nas lojas. Além do medo da onda de fechamentos de concessionárias no interior e cidades médias importantes. Eu li históricas de gente que agora tem que rodar 100-200 km para fazer revisão por que não tem concessionária ou loja da francesada perto.

Agora esse 308 maquiado tem tudo para ser um retumbante fracasso. Por que quem compra esse tipo de carro médio tem como pressuposto estar atualizado com o exterior e ser o top da tecnologia. Algo que o Ford Focus, VW Golf e até o Chevrolet Cruze com o monzatech e tudo tem mais a oferecer. Não vai querer um carro maquiado, menos ainda. Por isso que o Focus nada de braçada no segmento.

Depois a Peugeot não vende nada e ainda diz que quer "conquistar o público exigente"
Peugeot 308 2016 “Mercosul” ganha site com contagem regressiva para o lançamento

Com lançamento no Brasil marcado para esta terça-feira (27), o Peugeot 308 2016 ganhou um site exclusivo que mostra a contagem regressiva para a estreia onde há um link para se cadastrar e receber mais informações sobre o modelo.

Reestilizado em versão exclusiva para o Mercosul (na Europa o modelo só existe na nova geração), o 308 2016 já está sendo produzido na Argentina. Mantendo a mesma base do modelo anterior, a atualização no visual tem como destaque a nova dianteira e interior atualizado, que terá uma nova central multimídia compatível com Apple CarPlay e Android Auto.


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Na parte mecânica a principal novidade será uma versão atualizada da caixa automática de seis velocidades e função ECO, para otimizar o consumo. A suspensão também passou por uma recalibração para melhor dinâmica e conforto.

http://carplace.uol.com.br/peugeot-308- ... ancamento/




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5813 Mensagem por Bourne » Qua Out 28, 2015 8:45 am

Eles estão chegando. :o
Elétricos estão isentos do Imposto de Importação – híbridos serão beneficiados

Vale a partir desta terça-feira (27) a isenção do Imposto de Importação (alíquota de 35%) para veículos de propulsão elétrica ou movidos a hidrogênio (célula de combustível). Publicada no Diário Oficial, a a medida tem vigência imediata, ou seja, já vale para os próximos modelos deste tipo a serem faturados. A única exigência é que o veículo tenha autonomia mínima de 80 km.

A isenção contempla, segundo a resolução da Comex (Câmara de Comércio Exterior), os veículos importados completamente montados, os semi-desmontados e os totalmente desmontados, ou seja, a medida vai fomentar também a produção de veículos elétricos no Brasil em regime de CKD.

Já para o caso de automóveis híbridos (plug in ou não), a Camex estabeleceu que os carros equipados com motores a combustão de 1,5 a 3 litros poderão ter isenção total ou pagar de 2% a 7% de Imposto de Importação, dependendo do seu nível de eficiência energética. Veja a resolução completa clicando aqui!

O fato é que, enfim, o Brasil dá um passo importante na questão dos elétricos/híbridos, o que deverá estimular o mercado destes veículos por aqui. De cara serão beneficiados modelos como o elétrico BMW i3 (que hoje pode chegar a R$ 230 mil) e também os híbridos como Toyota Prius e Ford Fusion. Em breve as marcas deverão anunciar nova tabela de preços para os carros em questão.

Em adição, o presidente da Anfavea (associação que reúne as principais montadoras) Luiz Moan comemorou a decisão: “A Resolução Camex nº 97/2015 publicada hoje representa um grande avanço para o Brasil, pois possibilita ao consumidor acesso ao que há de mais moderno em tecnologia no mundo. Além disso, abre espaço também para a ampliação do desenvolvimento local de novas tecnologias, inserindo a engenharia brasileira nas principais rotas tecnológicas globais, inclusive com a oportunidade de criar soluções que utilizem o etanol”.

Notícia atualizada às 15:00 hrs

http://carplace.uol.com.br/veiculos-ele ... neficados/




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5814 Mensagem por Bourne » Sex Out 30, 2015 12:02 pm

Podem escolher o modelo e importar. :mrgreen: :lol:
Tesla's world-changing vision is working

From day one, Tesla CEO Elon Musk has said the company’s mission is to transition the world to electric cars.

But he’s also always said that he wouldn’t be able to do it alone.

Musk sees Tesla as a pioneer to pave the way for other carmakers, while also putting pressure on old school automakers to embrace electric cars.

In fact, Tesla actually made all of its technology open source in 2014, so that other car companies can use its tech to build their own electric vehicles.

“Most of the good that Tesla will accomplish is by cutting a path through the jungle to show what can be done with electric cars,” Musk said in January during an on-stage interview at the Detroit Auto Show. “The big impact Tesla will have is the reach to which that we induce other car companies to accelerate their plans for electric vehicles.”

However, he added that "until we start seeing in serious numbers of electric vehicles, then it’s hard to say there is a ton of effort behind it.”

But almost a year since his comments, it seems Musk's plan to force change in the automobile industry is gaining momentum.

A number of car companies — including General Motors, Volvo, Volkswagen, and Daimler — have all stepped up and announced big plans to ramp up their investments in electric cars.

In September, Volkswagen brands Audi and Porsche both revealed all-electric concept cars that are slated to go into production in 2018.

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Audi e-tron concept carAudi

Audi's all-electric e-tron quattro will go into production in 2018.

Volvo, which is owned by China’s Greely Holdings, said in October that it’s building an all-electric car by 2019 and that it expects electric cars to make up 10% of its global sales by 2020. And General Motors is planning to begin production of its mass market, all-electric vehicle called the Bolt, expected to price at about $30,000, in late 2016.

2015 Chevrolet BoltEVGeneral Motors

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General Motors will begin production on its all-electric Bolt vehicle in 2016.

Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz is also increasing its investment in the EV space. And other carmakers like Toyota Motor and Honda are investing heavily in eco-friendly cars; however, they are betting big that the vehicles will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells, rather than rechargeable electric batteries.

While growing competition might scare other companies, Musk remains steadfast that it was always part of the plan.

“The reason we are doing Tesla is to try to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport, to have there be more electric cars on the road,” Musk said in September during an interview with the Danish news site Borsen. “I’m glad to see these announcements of these other companies. I hope they move even faster than they announce.”

Tesla itself will begin rolling out its mass market car the Model 3, which is expected to price at $35,000, before 2020. But first the company must complete its Gigafactory, a giant battery manufacturing center in Nevada.

Tesla aims to reach full capacity at its plant by the end of the decade, producing as many as 500,000 cars per year.

http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-ele ... ng-2015-10




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5815 Mensagem por Bourne » Seg Nov 02, 2015 9:06 am

Isso explica muita coisa. A principal por que o hidrogênio não decolou e está sendo atropelado pelo carros elétricos com bateria. Não só da testa. O lançamento de carros elétricos virou corrida entre as montadoras. Já se fala de coisa de milhões de carros entregues ao mercado nos próximos anos.

É uma corrida para todas, menos para a Toyota que jura que encontrou o combustível do futuro e que acha que tudo será resolvido.
Tesla Trumps Toyota: Why Hydrogen Cars Can’t Compete With Pure Electric Cars

“Toyota Bets Against Tesla With New Hydrogen Car,” blares the headline at fool.com. That is a bad bet. It may even prove to be a major blunder for Toyota, which actually severed its RAV4 partnership with electric vehicle (EV) company Tesla back in May (though they kept their investment in Tesla).

I say that even though I own a Prius. In fact, I say it in part because I own a Prius. Fuel cell cars running on hydrogen simply won’t be greener than the Prius running on gasoline (!) — or even as practical as a mass-market vehicle — for a long, long time, if ever. So why buy one?

Right now, not only is electricity ubiquitous (i.e. relatively near where most cars are parked), but green electricity is nearly ubiquitous — and it is far cheaper to run one’s car on it than gasoline. Hydrogen, however, is not where cars are. “Green” hydrogen is nearly nonexistent. And it would be more expensive to run one’s car on green hydrogen than gasoline.

When I helped oversee the hydrogen and fuel cell and alternative vehicle programs at the Energy Departments Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy in the 1990s, I was a big supporter of hydrogen and transportation fuel cell vehicle (FCV) programs, helping to boost the funding for those programs substantially. But the FCV research did not pan out as expected — some key technologies proved impractical and others remained stubbornly expensive.

So as I researched my 2004 book, “The Hype About Hydrogen: Fact and Fiction in the Race to Save the Climate” — named one of the best science and technology books of 2004 by Library Journal — my view on both the green-ness of hydrogen cars and their practicality changed.

As I detailed at length in 2009 when President Obama and Energy Secretary Chu wisely tried to kill the program, “Hydrogen fuel cell cars are a dead end from a technological, practical, and climate perspective.”

In this post I will focus on the climate issue. I’ll discuss the equally daunting practical issues in Part 2.
There are two huge problems with FCVs for those who worry about global warming and hence net greenhouse gas emissions:

In general, some 95% of our hydrogen is currently produced from natural gas, or, rather, from the methane (CH4) that compromises most of natural gas.
Making hydrogen from renewable resources like carbon-free electricity is expensive and an incredibly wasteful use of that valuable resource.

“Currently, the most state-of-the-art procedure is a distributed [on-site] natural gas steam reforming process,” explains Ford Motor company, which is working on its own fuel cell vehicle. “However, when FCVs are run on hydrogen reformed from natural gas using this process, they do not provide significant environmental benefits on a well-to-wheels basis (due to GHG emissions from the natural gas reformation process).”

It’s actually worse than that. Julian Cox at CleanTechnica has gone through the well-to-wheel (WTW) life-cycle GHG emissions of FCVs, EVs, and other vehicles in great detail in June post revealing that FCVs aren’t green. Cox notes that “90% of the Californian Energy Commission hydrogen infrastructure budget has been earmarked for non-sequestered fossil fuel production of Hydrogen in return for lip service of future environmental benefits that can never be forthcoming.”

The graph shows high-polluting cars on the left, and low-polluting cars on the right. And it’s plain to see that hydrogen FCV vehicles group to the left, while EVs group to the right. It’s actually worse than that because Cox does not appear to have included the impact of the recent measurements and calculations of methane leakage from methane production, which are so severe they undermine the case for replacing coal-fired power plants with natural gas fired power plants.

So Cox’s conclusions are conservative, but still sobering:

The economically inescapable reason why hydrogen is of no benefit in tackling GHG emissions is that hydrogen produced by the most efficient commercial route emits a minimum of 14.34Kg CO2e versus 11.13Kg CO2e for a U.S. gallon of gasoline (of which 13.2Kg is actual CO2 gas in the case of hydrogen). This best case is not even the typical case owing to difficulties in transporting hydrogen in bulk. Hence the on-site (distributed) production from natural gas at fueling stations that suffers lowered efficiencies of scale. The real-world data attests to the fact that when installed in a hybrid electric vehicle the real-world energy conversion efficiency is insufficient to overcome the added GHG emission intensity of hydrogen production.

Unlike the optimal economic synergy of plug-in EVs and renewables, the economics of hydrogen strongly prevents renewables from competing to power an FCV fleet either now or in the future. Natural gas is no bridge to a better future. In the case of FCVs it is an economic barrier to renewables.

Converting cheap fracked gas into hydrogen is very likely going to be substantially cheaper than practical, mass-produced carbon-free hydrogen for decades, certainly well past the point we need to start dramatically reducing transportation emissions (which is ASAP).

For EVs, on the other hand, unsubsidized renewable electricity is already directly competitive with grid electricity in many parts of the country — and poised to continue dropping in price. In places where carbon-free power is on the rise, such as California, the electricity is already far less carbon intense than the nation as a whole. That’s why EVs in a state like California is already super-green (see final bars in chart above).

But you may ask, why don’t we simply use an electrolyzer to convert renewable electricity into hydrogen and run the fuel cell car on that? I answered that question in my book and in my 2006 Scientific American article, “Hybrid Vehicles,” written with advanced-hybrid guru Andy Frank:

For policymakers concerned about global warming, plug-in hybrids hold an edge over another highly touted green vehicle technology — hydrogen fuel cells. Plug-ins would be better at utilizing zero-carbon electricity because the overall hydrogen fueling process is inherently costly and inefficient. Any effective hydrogen economy would require an infrastructure that could use zero-carbon power to electrolyze water into hydrogen, convey this highly diffuse gas long distances, and pump it at high pressure into the car -– all for the purpose of converting the hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell to drive electric motor.

The entire process of electrolysis, transportation, pumping and fuel-cell conversion would leave only about 20 to 25 percent of the original zero-carbon electricity to drive the motor. In a plug-in hybrid, the process of electricity transmission, charging an onboard battery and discharging the battery would leave 75 to 80 percent of the original electricity to drive the motor. Thus, a plug-in should be able to travel three to four times farther on a kilowatt-hour of renewable electricity than a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle could.

So from a greenhouse gas perspective, there is no competition between pure electrics and hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. EVs win hands down and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Now it is reasonable to argue that pure electric vehicles (and to a lesser extent plug-in hybrids) have not completely crossed the threshold of becoming practical mass-market cars. But as I’ll discuss in Part 2, the view that hydrogen FCVs will overcome their many so-far-intractable obstacles to crossing that threshold while EVs won’t make steady progress on their fewer, so-far-much-more-tractable issues is implausible. Such a view should not be the basis of national climate or energy or transportation policy.

NOTE: Nothing I write here should be taken as a recommendation for or against investing in Tesla (or Toyota or any company, for that matter). There are simply too many examples of companies in the right technology space mismanaging themselves into oblivion.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/0 ... batteries/
Tesla Trumps Toyota Part II: The Big Problem With Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles

The biggest problem hydrogen fuel cell vehicles face is that they deliver no obvious major consumer (or societal/environmental) benefit compared to the competition, but have a bunch of obvious consumer defects. These defects include high first cost, high fueling cost (compared to both gasoline and electricity), lack of fueling stations and lack of a nationwide fuel-delivery infrastructure — especially for renewable hydrogen.

It would take several miracles to overcome all of those problems simultaneously in the coming decades. Last year, for instance, a major independent study concluded: “Hobbled by High Cost, Hydrogen Fuel Cells Will Be a Modest $3 Billion Market in 2030.” And beyond solving the myriad problems needed to make hydrogen cars practical and affordable, one of the miracles needed for their marketplace triumph would be that all of the competing vehicles, such as electric vehicles or advanced hybrids, fail to make any major advances at all during the same time.

Back in the 1990s, people were excited about a variety of different alternative fuel vehicles — electric vehicles (EVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs), and cars running on natural gas, methanol, and ethanol, to name some of the most common ones we pursued when I was helping to oversee the effort at the
Energy Department. A key focus then was reducing our dependence on imported oil, and the environmental issue of greatest concern was reducing tail-pipe emissions of things like NOx (nitrogen oxides) in order to reduce urban air pollution, smog (which is also caused by volatile organic compounds aka VOCs), and acid rain (which is also caused by SOx).

States like California in particular were extremely concerned about tailpipe emissions and wanted to promote zero-emission vehicles — hence the great interest in EVs and FCVs, the only plausible candidates for zero tailpipe emissions.

One big problem for both EVs and FCVs (besides their cost and technological limitations at the time) was that the EPA drove the oil industry to improve its gasoline formulation, dramatically reducing the sulfur content (a process that will likely continue for a while). That in turn helped the automobile industry provide vehicles that dramatically improve all tail-pipe emissions, with the exception of CO2.

But Toyota in particular addressed all emissions problems (and the oil consumption problem) with its amazing 2004 Prius, arguably the world’s first truly practical and affordable (i.e. mass market) green car. The Prius was not merely almost twice as fuel-efficient as cars in its class, it was also a PZEV — a partial zero emission vehicle. That meant the vehicle had zero evaporative emissions of gasoline VOCs and substantially lower emissions of other regulated air pollutants compared to a typical new car at the time. So, for instance, the Prius has emissions of only 0.02 grams of NOx per mile!

From a green consumer perspective, if you wanted a car that slashed oil consumption, slashed carbon pollution, slashed tailpipe emissions, was affordable and could be fueled everywhere — heck, that required half the trips to the gas station and had an incredible range — you could buy a Prius. You could also buy some of the few other PZEV hybrids. Or merely a fuel-efficient PZEV. And many people did!

Those advances in gasoline-fueled cars definitely undercut the consumer value proposition, and government motivation, for alternative fuel vehicles (AFVs), including EVs and FCVs. How much extra cost and inconvenience would the average car buyer be willing to accept just to reduce tail pipe emissions from the already very low 0.02 gms NOx down to 0.00 (and to reduce evaporator emissions not at all)? The answer was, unsurprisingly, “not bloody much.”

But over the past two decades, while concern over new car tailpipe emissions dropped somewhat, concern over CO2 emissions has grown — and not just in the U.S. but globally, where most new cars are sold. And that meant renewed interest in a true ZEV, one that didn’t just have zero tailpipe emissions, but one that ran on a fuel that itself was virtually emission-free AND carbon-free.

At the same time, manufacturers and entrepreneurs kept working on improving ZEV technology. The Bush Administration launched its (in)famous hydrogen car initiative, dramatically boosting spending on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (funded in part by slashing efforts to work with big energy-using companies to develop and deploy near-term energy-efficient technologies). And massive amounts of money were poured into improving batteries and related components, not just by governments, car makers and clean energy venture capitalists, but also by portable device and phone manufacturers who wanted to improve performance while cutting costs.

The results in the case of batteries have been impressive:

And so we have seen the introduction of many vehicles by many carmakers that are either pure EVs (like the Tesla) or plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), like the Chevy Volt, advanced hybrids that can run a short commuter-scale distance on pure electricity before either reverting to the onboard gasoline engine or requiring a stop to recharge.

Yet, as I said in Part I, it is reasonable to argue that pure electric vehicles (and to a lesser extent plug-in hybrids) have not completely crossed the threshold of becoming practical mass-market cars — at least in the U.S. market where many consumers expect to be able to use their car for long distance travel with rapid road-side refueling. Sales of pure EVs have been soaring in places where people tend to have different expectations for their cars.

But there remain essentially no commercial FCVs and certainly no practical ones. Yes, many car companies like Toyota have continued to develop fuel-cell vehicles and bring down their costs, to the point where some are planning to introduce FCVs into the U.S. market, but at high (Tesla-level prices) with few refueling station options in most markets (and virtually no green refueling options).

I also explained in Part I why FCVs simply aren’t green compared to EVs nor are they likely to become so for the foreseeable future. In part, that’s because green hydrogen from renewable power requires one to waste a large fraction of that premium resource.

Here are the numbers from the Advanced Power and Energy Program at UC Irvine:
EVvsFCV

The situation is even worse for FCVs, or what the figure calls Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEVs). The two best cases for FCEVs in the chart — a hydrogen pipeline system from central station renewable generation and onsite renewable generation and electrolysis — are wildly implausible for many decades to come, if ever (as I’ll discuss in Part III).

But in any case, we have this huge global warming problem going on right now. We aren’t going to go to all the trouble of creating a premium solution, zero-carbon electricity, only to throw away most of it as part of some elaborate hydrogen FCV scheme — a scheme that also requires the creation of an elaborate and expensive new system of green hydrogen production and/or delivery infrastructure. That’s particularly true when we can just run EVs on the premium carbon-free power directly (or, for that matter, simply continue to slash vehicle CO2 emissions through the straightforward continuation of fuel economy improvements).

Once again, FCVs simply aren’t greener than EVs in any practical sense either now or in the foreseeable future.
But what of the possibility that FCVs could eventually — decades from now — be as green (or greener) than EVs and more practical a vehicle? [To dislodge an incumbent technology and its vast corresponding infrastructure, one has to do better than simply being as green and as practical and affordable.]

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/0 ... rogen-car/
Tesla Trumps Toyota: The Seven Reasons Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars Are Stalled

For reasons that mostly defy logic, the otherwise shrewd car company, Toyota, is placing a large bet on hydrogen fuel cell cars, starting with the Mirai. At the same time, it has backed away from its partnership with Tesla to build an all-electric vehicle.
Toyota is going to lose this bet. There is little reason to believe hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles (FCVs) will ever beat electric vehicles in the car market. There is even less reason to believe they will ever be a cost-effective carbon-reducing strategy (as EVs already are close to being) as I discussed in Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.

To be clear, this isn’t FCVs versus Tesla. This is FCVs versus every other car, including electric vehicles (EVs). The series has the “Tesla Trumps Toyota” headline since it was inspired by an article titled “Toyota Bets Against Tesla With New Hydrogen Car,” which also discussed their broken partnership.

I believe we now know enough about EVs, the global car market, the world’s growing response to the threat of unrestricted carbon pollution, and the steady advances being made in battery technology to know with confidence that EVs will be a major player in the global car market in the coming years. That is true even if Tesla doesn’t succeed. And it has been clear for a decade, at least, that if electric cars can succeed in the marketplace that leaves very little room for hydrogen cars, as the links above make clear.

As an aside, FCV advocates have often responded by saying, well, EVs may be better for cars, but FCVs are better for bigger vehicles like minivans, SUVs and light trucks. That is essentially the point both Honda and Toyota made in their response to several serious questions about hydrogen cars posed last fall by “Green Car Reports.” The point is entirely moot until FCVs actually solve all seven problems they face, some of which get bigger for bigger vehicles. It also bears noting that Toyota’s first FCV is a sedan!

In any case, after looking into hydrogen cars for the umpteenth time in my career, I seriously doubt they hold any prospect for either marketplace success — or contributing to the climate solution — for decades (if ever). They simply have too many barriers to success as a mass-market alternative fuel vehicle car. Indeed, they have every barrier there is!

I was first briefed on advances in transportation fuel cells within days of my arrival at the Department of Energy in mid-1993. One of DOE’s national labs, Los Alamos, had recently figured out how to reduce the amount of platinum in the best fuel cells for vehicles, proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cells (as had researchers elsewhere). This did not make them affordable in cars — we are still a long way from that — but a time when they might be had become imaginable. I (and others at DOE) quickly began pushing for increases in the budget for both hydrogen research and fuel cell research. Then, in the mid-1990s, when I helped oversee the hydrogen and fuel cell and alternative vehicle programs at DOE’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, I worked to keep the budgets up even as the Gingrich Congress tried to slash all of DOE’s clean tech funding.

With that funding — and partnerships with the big U.S. automakers — advances were made, slowly. But the FCV research did not pan out as expected — some key technologies proved impractical and others remained stubbornly expensive.

Even so, in 2003 President George W. Bush announced in the State of the Union that he was calling on the nation’s scientists and engineers to work on FCVs “so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen and pollution free.” That set off another massive increase of spending by the federal government and investments by private companies in hydrogen and fuel cells.

I began researching what was to be a hydrogen primer. But as I read the literature, talked to the experts in and out of government, and did my own analysis, my views on both the green-ness of hydrogen cars and their practicality changed. It became increasingly clear that hydrogen cars were a very difficult proposition. My 2004 book, “The Hype About Hydrogen: Fact and Fiction in the Race to Save the Climate” came out in 2004, just as the National Academy of Sciences came out with a study that was also sobering (as did the American Physical Society).

My conclusion in 2004 was that “hydrogen vehicles are unlikely to achieve even a 5% market penetration by 2030.” And that in turn meant hydrogen fuel cell cars were not going to be a major contributor to addressing climate change for a very long time.
What has changed since then? Less than Toyota and other FCV advocates would have you believe. A 2013 study by independent research and advisory firm Lux

Research concluded even more pessimistically that despite billions in research and development spent in the past decade, “The dream of a hydrogen economy envisioned for decades by politicians, economists, and environmentalists is no nearer, with hydrogen fuel cells turning a modest $3 billion market of about 5.9 GW in 2030.” The lead author explains, “High capital costs and the low costs of incumbents provide a nearly insurmountable barrier to adoption, except in niche applications.”

To understand why this is true, you need to understand why, until very recently, alternative fuel vehicles (AFVs) of all kinds haven’t had much success. A significant literature emerged to explain that lack of success by AFVs — as I discussed in my book and a 2005 journal article, “The car and fuel of the future”
There have historically been seven major (interrelated) barriers to AFV success in the U.S. market:

1. High first cost for vehicle: Can the AFV be built at an affordable price for consumers? Can that affordable AFV be built profitably?
2. On-board fuel storage issues (i.e. limited range): Can enough alternative fuel be stored onboard to give the car the kind of range consumers expect — without compromising passenger or cargo space? Can the AFV be refueled fast enough to satisfy consumer expectations?
3. Safety and liability concerns: Is the alternative fuel safe, something typical users can easily handle with special training?
4. High fueling cost (compared to gasoline): Is the alternative fuel’s cost (per mile) similar to (or cheaper than) gasoline? If not, how much more expensive is it to use?
5. Limited fuel stations (the chicken and egg problem): On the one hand, who will build and buy the AFVs in large quantity if a broad fueling infrastructure is not in place to service them? On the other, who will build that fueling infrastructure — taking the risk of a massive stranded investment — before a large quantity of AFVs are built and bought, that is, before these particular AFVs have been proven to be winners in the marketplace?
6. Improvements in the competition: If the AFV still needs years of improvement to be a viable car, are the competitors — including fuel-efficient gasoline cars — likely to improve as much or more during this time? In short, is it likely competitors will still be superior vehicles in 2020 or 2030?
7. Problems delivering cost-effective emissions reductions: Is the low-emission or emission-free version of the alternative fuel affordable? Are fueling stations for that version of the fuel affordable and practical?

Every AFV introduced in the past three decades has suffered from at least three of those problems. Besides the tough competition (like the Prius), EVs have suffered most from #1 (high first cost) and #2 (limited range and slow speed of recharging). But major progress is being made in both areas.
FCVs suffer from all of them — and still do! It is very safe to say that FCVs are the most difficult and expensive kind of alternative fuel vehicle imaginable. While R&D into FCVs remains worthwhile, massive investment for near-term deployment makes no sense until multiple R&D breakthroughs have occurred.

They are literally the last alternative fuel vehicle you would make such investments in — and only after all the others failed.
As an aside, if you think FCVs have solved #2, the onboard storage issue, they have not — even though this is considered their big advantage over electric vehicles. In fact, they are probably a breakthrough away from doing so, as Ford Motor Company has acknowledged. Infrastructure (#5) remains the most intractable barrier for FCVs. It is far less of a problem for EVs (as I noted here).

For governments and climate hawks, problem #7 may be the most important. As of today, it remains entirely possible that hydrogen fuel cell cars will never solve the problem of delivering cost-effective emissions reductions in the transportation sector — a problem EVs do not have. I discussed that in Part 1 and Part 2.

But the United States, Japan, and other countries — and many automakers — continue to misallocate funds toward near-term deployment of deeply flawed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Because of that, and because after 25 years of dawdling on climate action we lack the time to keep making such multi-billion dollar mistakes, I will discuss the 7 barriers FCVs still face today in more detail in subsequent posts. I will also discuss how EVs have been tearing down the few remaining barriers to their marketplace success.

NOTE: Nothing I write here should be taken as a recommendation for or against investing in Tesla (or Toyota or any company, for that matter).




Petry
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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5816 Mensagem por Petry » Seg Nov 02, 2015 11:05 pm

Para mim, um VW UP elétrico com uma autonomia de 250 km para cima seria o suficiente. Se fosse acessível, compraria mesmo com limitações.

Não iam vender o nissan leaf ou algo assim por aqui?




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5817 Mensagem por bcorreia » Seg Nov 02, 2015 11:58 pm

Petry escreveu:Para mim, um VW UP elétrico com uma autonomia de 250 km para cima seria o suficiente. Se fosse acessível, compraria mesmo com limitações.

Não iam vender o nissan leaf ou algo assim por aqui?
O Problema dos carros elétricos de tamanho muito compacto é o volume das baterias e o peso delas, um carro como o UP! movido com motor a explosão é leve, por isso pode ter um motor menor e mais fraco, pode assim ser mais econômico, já um carro elétrico não consegue reduzir muito o seu peso em relação a uma versão média por causa das baterias (a do Leaf pesa 300KGs), no teste de longa duração da quatro rodas o Leaf com um pacote de baterias de 24kWh tem tido uma autonomia real em torno dos 100KMs, por mais que coloquem um motor de menor potência no UP!, que não pode ser tão reduzida, já que apesar de ser um carro pequeno, com as baterias seria um carro de uns 1200, não sei se com a tecnologia atual seria possível fazer uma versão elétrica deste com uma autonomia de 250kms ou superior, eu apostaria em coisa entre 100 a 150kms o que para um city car acho um alcance até bem razoável.

Me parece que o Leaf não está ainda sendo vendido por aqui, as unidades que estão rodando por aqui em sua maioria são carros para testes, como os Taxis no Rio e em São Paulo, as viaturas de polícia usadas na orla do Rio, a da Quatro Rodas foi cedida para a revista pela Nissan, mas reza a lenda que a Nissan deve trazer esse carro para a venda aqui no Brasil a "módicos" 140 mil reais.




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5818 Mensagem por akivrx78 » Ter Nov 03, 2015 6:52 am

Os carros elétricos não! Nós Toyota
de Carblogger | 02 de novembro de 2015

Mais informações em: carros elétricos, de hidrogênio, lítio, Toyota

de Carblogger

Não há nada a fazer. O carro elétrico A Toyota não gosta. A confirmação enésima aqui em Tóquio. Falei com Koei Saga, um membro do Conselho de Administração e Diretor Gerente Sênior da Toyota, que uma vida passada na empresa japonesa, o grau de hoje. Um total de 38 anos. Saga já viu de tudo em Nagoya. Exceto o carro elétrico.

O gerente, quando começar a ele, confirma a teoria da Toyota hoje, as baterias de lítio não oferecem a confiabilidade e acima de tudo, a capacidade de energia para um carro. Em essência: a taxa de lucro "corrente" ainda é muito limitado. O exemplo é o smartphone (Saga mostra seu Samsung): duração infinita em stand-by, mas que é drasticamente reduzido quando se utiliza aplicativos ou navegar na web. Muito pouco.

Confirmação algumas horas mais tarde, ao apresentar o seu approch Powertrain, a Toyota parece em um slide "milagrosamente" o carro elétrico, exceto ignorando completamente a mesma velocidade durante toda a apresentação. Nem uma palavra para o item de despesa Ev.

Imagem

Melhor, em seguida ponto, de acordo com a Saga, com células de combustível de hidrogênio em vez de baterias de lítio como o Mirai ou sobre o conceito de FCV Plus ou Lexus LF-Fc mostrado no Tokyo Motor Show. Ou na tecnologia híbrida-se agora estabelecida. Fornecida também aqui não usar baterias de lítio-íon, a nova quarta geração do Prius vai adotá-lo com "moderação".

toyota além de hidrogénio

Imagem

Apenas em alguns países o Prius terá sistemas de lítio (principalmente EUA e Japão), o resto vai continuar a usar níquel metal hidreto, a mesma tecnologia do Prius antes de 1995. Ainda mais se, como expliquei o ' engenheiro-chefe Koji Toyoshima, o futuro versão wheel-drive do Prius "vai usar apenas o níquel, porque é menos sujeito a perda de capacidade em temperaturas baixas." Nada a ver com baterias de lítio e que Toyota elétrica não gosta deles.

http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/11 ... a/2181220/




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5819 Mensagem por Bourne » Ter Nov 03, 2015 12:34 pm

A Toyota vai acabar cedendo.

As baterias de litium estão cada vez mais duráveis, baratas e recarregam mais rápido. Nos próximos anos, os carros híbridos como Ford Fusion e elétricos como tesla vão ser cada vez mais comuns, cujos sistemas vão ser mais baratos e confiáveis. Nos próximos lançamentos será comum, assim com os motores turbo atuais.

E a Honda possui uma gama de alternativas hibridas e elétricas bem grande.

http://automobiles.honda.com/alternative-fuel-vehicles/

A magia da tesla foi lançar um sedan premium elétrico com boa autonomia e com um desempenho que põe BMW M3 ou BMW M5, os RS da audi ou AMG da Mercedes no bolso. Agora que viabilizou o negócio pode vender carros mais baratos e investir em gamas mais convencionais.




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Re: Carros: marcas, nacionalidade, qualidades e defeitos

#5820 Mensagem por akivrx78 » Ter Nov 03, 2015 2:42 pm

Porsche também manipulou veículos para ocultar emissões, diz agência dos EUA
2 nov 2015
18h56

As autoridades americanas afirmaram nesta segunda-feira que o Porsche Cayenne 2015 também tem instalado um software ilegal que oculta as emissões reais de seus motores a diesel e que aumentou o número de modelos de Volkswagen e Audi manipulados para burlar as leis ambientais dos Estados Unidos.

A Agência de Proteção Ambiental (EPA) dos Estados Unidos emitiu hoje um novo aviso de violação da legislação americana para incluir os modelos de 2014 a 2016 equipados com motores a diesel de 3 litros das marcas Volkswagen, Audi e Porsche.

O órgão identificou como modelos afetados Volkswagen Touareg 2014, Porsche Cayenne 2015, e Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L e Q5.

A EPA especificou que a suposta manipulação "se junta" ao que foi descoberto em 18 de setembro e que afeta os veículos do Grupo
Volkswagen dotados com motores diesel de 2 litros em modelos dos anos 2009 a 2015.

"A Volkswagen novamente não cumpriu sua obrigação de se ajustar à lei que protege o ar para todos os americanos", disse em comunicado Cynthia Giles, subdiretora do escritório de cumprimento de garantias da EPA.

"Todas as empresas deveriam seguir as mesmas regras. A EPA investigará essas graves questões para assegurar os benefícios da Lei de Ar Limpo e as mesmas regras de jogo para as empresas responsáveis", acrescentou Giles.

http://noticias.terra.com.br/ciencia/po ... g9wyz.html




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