Sobre o TF-X turco

[AlbertoRJ]

Para não poluir outros tópicos.

Turkey ready to produce first national fighter jet

15 June 2011, Wednesday / EMRE SONCAN , ANKARA

The Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSIK) has taken the first step towards producing Turkey’s first national fighter jet by launching feasibility studies.

According to a Defense Ministry source that remained anonymous, the SSIK had met with Chief of General Staff Gen. Isik Kosaner and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in December 2010 when they took the decision to produce the Turkish fighter jet and to complete it by 2023, the centennial of the Turkish Republic, and had started feasibility studies for the fighter jet. The source stated that this study includes how much the fighter jet will cost, which mechanical and electronic systems will be used, and the opportunities and threats on the market.

The Turkish Air Forces (THK) currently has McDonnell Douglas F-4s and F-16 Fighting Falcons in its jet fighter inventory. However, these planes will be changed to F-35 from the American aviation company Lockheed Martin in the next couple of years. Since fighter jets require high-technology software to be operated, companies are not willing to share the codes of these planes, making the owner of these fighters jets dependant on the company. Turkey, however, wants to decrease its dependency on high-tech foreign defense industries by producing its own products such as its own fighter jet.

Meanwhile, Turkey’s first observation satellite RASAT was sent to Russia on Wednesday for its launch into space. It is expected that RASAT, designed and manufactured in Turkey by the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TUBITAK) and supported by the State Planning Organization (DPT), is expected to be launched in July from a space station in Russia. Satellite photos from the Turkish observation satellite will be used in city planning, forestry, agriculture and disaster management.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-247512- ... r-jet.html

[AlbertoRJ]

TF-X & THK



Introduction

The press release after Defence Industry Executive Committee (DIEC) meeting on December 15, 2010, signalled the beginning of a new era for Turkish Air Force (TurAF) and Turkish Defence industry.

In his press announcement, Minister of National Defence, Mr Vecdi Gonul informed that a decision for contract negotiations with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) on the conceptual design phase for a jet trainer and combat aircraft (TFX) to enter service with TurAF in 2020s. A total of USD 20,000,000 was earmarked for the conceptual design period which is expected to last 2 years.

This decision came as surprise to many. TAI currently has a number of aircraft upgrade (T-38M Ari, CCIP, Erciyes, HeliMod, Yarasa, Isik, Simsek) programs as well as Hurkus basic turboprop trainer and Anka Medium Altitude Long Endurance unmanned air vehicle (UAV) development projects underway.

Hurkus project is currently at prototype production stage. First flight is expected in 2011 with the certification procedures to be completed in 2013. The successful completion of Hurkus project and service entry in the second half of the decade will mean a pass over a psychological and technological barrier for Turkish aviation industry.

Turkish Air Force Combat and Trainer Fleet Status

Turkish Air Force currently operates 210 Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 30/40/50 Fighting Falcon, 49 McDonnell Douglas F-4E 2020 Terminator and 16 adet F-4ETM Phantom II fighters. 173 F-16s, of Block 40 and Block 50 versions, are being modernized Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) aviyonics uprade under Peace Onyx III program. 37 Block 30s are receiving a limited upgrade, since they are used for training and combat transition. CCIP modernized Block 40 and Block 50 F-16s will form the backbone of TurAF combat force together with 30 new F-16C/D Block 50+s license produced under Peace Onyx IV program at TAI facilities. Technical negotiations are currently underway with the US for access to mission computer and Operation Flight Program (OFP) for capability to integrate locally developed weapon and avionics systems to F-16s.

F-4E 2020s which were modernized by Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) form the long range precision strike and interdiction force of the TurAF. Equipped with an extremely powerful Elta EL/M-2032 radar and Popeye I precision guided missile as well as GBU-10/12 Paveway laser guided bombs, AGM-65 Maverick television guided missiles, F-4E 2020s currently have received Hassas Gudum Kiti (HGK) GPS/INS guided bombs developed by Turkish TUBITAK SAGE. The Terminator fleet, which were modernized between 1999 – 2003 will be withdrawn from service starting 2020. Turkey gained full control over the mission computer, avionics and OFP of the F-4E 2020s with the Terminator project. This enabled integration of weapon and avionics systems such as Demet cluster bomb, HGK and Menzil Disi Muhimmat (MDM) stan-off weapon system as well as ASELPOD navigation and targeting pod.

A total of 16 F-4Es which did not enter Terminator program are being modernized under Simsek program to extend their service life until the second half of the decade. These fighters, re-designated as F-4ETM will equip 112 Filo. The other unmodernized F-4E squadron, 172, was temporarily disbanded in May 2009 until the introduction of F-35 Lightning II. The first F-4ETM prototype made its maiden flight on December 22, 2009 and the first two aircraft were delivered on March 2, 2010. Under the project, the aircraft are being equipped with ASELSAN produced LN-100GT GPS/INS navigation system, CDU-900 Control display Unit, MXF-484 radio and new OFP, again develped by ASELSAN.

As for the trainer aircraft, the TurAF currently has a fleet of Cessna T-41D Mescalero, Aermacchi SF-260D, Cessna T-37B/C Tweet and Northrop T-38A Talon. F-16 pilot nominees are recevign combat readiness training with F-5A/B 2000 Lead In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) aircraft.

The T-37B/C fleet, which are being used for introductory training for jet pilots, are being replaced by KT-1T. A total of 40 KT-1T are being procured under a 357 million Dollar project signed in 2007. The first 5 aircraft were produced by Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI), followed by the commence of licensed production at TAI facilities. The first TAI produced KT-1T made its maiden flight on October 5, 2010.

55 of the more than 60 T-38A Talons, which entered service between 1979 – 1980 are receiving an extensive avionics upgrade under Ari (bee) project. Modernization work is being carried on by TAI and Eskisehir 1st Air Supply and Maintenance Centre (ASMC). The 84.5 million Dollar project covers the integration of a new Head Up Display (HUD), Multi Function Color Display (MFCD), MDR-80 Digital Video-Data Recorder / Data Transfer System (DVDR/DTS), Hands On Throttle and Stick (HOTAS), intercom, MXF-484 and MXF-243A V/UHF radio systems, Engine Function Indicator (EFI), Cockpit Television Video Sensor (CTVS), VOR/ILS and a new mission computer as well as Martin Baker Mk16 ejection seat. The first T-38M Ari made its maiden flight on November 3, 2010.

F-5 2000s are being used in advanced jet training. A total of 48 F-5s (20 F-5A, 14 NF-5A, 8 F-5B and 6 NF-5B) were modernized by IAI and 1st AMSC between 2002 – 2007. These aircraft will be retired at the start of 2020s.

Turkey is also a Level III partner of the Lockheed Martin led Joint Strike Fighter project. Entered from the System Development and Demonstration phase, a total of 100 F-35s are expected to be ordered. Lightning IIs are going to replace F-4Es starting 2014 – 2015. Turkey is currently negotiating with the US for access to OFP in order to integrate indigenous weapon and mission systems to the aircraft. Similar requirement is also on the agenda of UK and Israel, the first export customer of the aircraft.

Requirements

There are several motives behind Turkey’s decision for an indigenous fighter / trainer aircraft project, one being the force structure of the TurAF and the other is to increase the number of sources while strenghtening the national aerospace and defence industry.

As of January 2011, TurAF combat and trainer aircraft inventory is as follows:

37 F-16C/D Block 30 (Delivery:: 1987 – 1989)

101 F-16C/D Block 40 (Delivery: 1990 – 1995)

72 F-16C/D Block 50 (Delivery: 1995 – 1999)

50 F-4E 2020 Terminator (Modernization deliveres: 1999 – 2003)

16 F-4ETM Simsek (Modernization deliveres: 2010 – 2011)

T-38A Talon (Delivery: 1979 – 1980)

F-5 2000 (Modernization deliveres: 2002 – 2007)

T-37B/C Tweet (Delivery: 1963 – 1992)

F-16C/D Block 30s are being used for training and combat readiness. Main strike force consists of Block 40 and Block 50s, hence the receipt of extensive avionics and weapon systems upgrade under CCIP. Block 30s with airframes 22 – 24 years old are nearing the end of their useful service lives. Strating 2020, these aircraft will be retired.

As for the Phantom fleet, F-4ETMs will no longer be economic and safe to fly towards the end of 2010s. These aircraft are of FY66 and FY67 series, the oldest examples in TurAF service. The total number of serviceable F-4Es was limited, that was the main reason of temporary disbandment of 172 Filo. Shortly after F-4ETMs, F-4E 2020s will also be retired around 2020, hence the offical designation.

So overall, TurAF will have 6 squadrons of aircraft, including the disbanded 172 Filo which will have to be replaced starting 2020. This means around 100 fighters

The jet trainer fleet that needs to be replaced in 2020s by a modern type consists of around 45 F-5 2000s and 55 T-38Ms, a total of 100 aircraft.

Another important factor for the starting of TFX project is the need to increase the number of sources:

One of the biggest gains of Turkey with the Terminator project is the installation of a System Integration Laboratory and test facilities at Eskisehir 1st ASMC. With this facility, Turkey gained the capability to produce experience on development, integration and modernization of avionics and weapons systems on modern aircraft, as is the case with integration and test of AIM-9X, JDAM and JSOW on TurAF F-16s, HGK on F-4E 2020s etc. With the experience and technology gained from the Terminator project, Isik, Simsek and Ari programs became possible.

F-4E 2020s thus provided Turkey freedom of movement without any political or technological barriers, unlike the case with F-16s and in the future F-35s, procured through Foreign Military Sales (FMS). Turkey is in hot negotiations with the US for permission of access to OFP of both F-16 and F-35. US permission and intervention is required in modernization and integration of indigenous systems on these aircraft because of aggreements.

Conclusion

TFX, after the possible successful compleiton of Hurkus development program, will be an important symbol of achievement for Turkish aerospace industry which went through Terminator, Isik, Simsek and Ari modernization projects. For now, it is not possible to outline the project model of TFX, but it can safely be aassumed that TFX will not be a “Tejas-a-la-Turca”, i.e. a fully indigenous aircraft development program but some major subsystems (such as engines) imported and/or produced under license at first stage.

According to the words of MoD Vecdi Gonul, Turkey does not plan to join a multinational program as a partner, thus killing all hopes of the Eurofighter Consortium, which offered Turkey full partnership for the development of “EF-2020”, the next generation version of the Typhoon multirole aircraft. Gonul did not rule out a cooperation with South Korea, but his statements implied that a partnership for T-50 Golden Eagle and/or KF-X is not on the table.

South Korea is already a partner of Turkey in several defence projects such as Firtina (Thunder) self propelled howitzer, KT-1T trainer aircraft and Altay main battle tank development program. A project structure similar to Altay might be possible, in which local companies being main and subcontractors while a foreign compay is selected as technology and know how provider. Sweden might also be another candidate with Gripen background and technology.

In conclusion, TFX will be a challange to Turkish defence and aerospace industry and a gateway for entering a new league. If concluded successfully, it will be represent self dependency of Turkish defence industry and military and also a promise by engineers fullfilled to their counterparts in 1940s worked on a number of Turkish designed aircraft.
http://www.siyahgribeyaz.com/2011/05/tf-x-thk.html

[Penguin]

Excelente iniciativa Alberto!

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[AlbertoRJ]

Algumas críticas e ceticismo:

Turkey to design, produce its own fighter jet

y ARIEH O’SULLIVAN | THE MEDIA LINE
Published: Dec 20, 2010 21:35 Updated: Dec 20, 2010 21:35

ANKARA: Turkey has tossed aside plans to purchase the Eurofighter Typhoon and is pursuing an ambitious endeavor to design and produce its own fighter jet instead. The decision, announced by Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, is seen as not only an industrial move, but one aimed at boosting national pride with its “Made in Turkey” fighter.

“The decision we have taken now calls for the production of a totally national and original aircraft,” Gonul told reporters last week after a meeting of the powerful Defense Industry Executive Committee decided to nix plans to purchase 60 of the latest Typhoon jet fighters. “This move by the committee effectively is a decision for making Turkey’s first fighter aircraft,” Gonul said. “The Eurofighter is off Turkey’s agenda.”

According to reports, the new aircraft would replace the aging US-made F-4, which had been upgraded by Israel to last well into the next decade, as well as newer F-16s. The expected roll out date for Turkey’s twin-engine combat jet would reportedly be about 2023.

Ankara has already announced it plans to procure some 100 of the next-generation F-35s Joint Strike Fighter aircraft in a deal worth about $15 billion. The first JSF jets are expected to be delivered around 2015. According to Defense News, however, Turkey would take the approximately 30 F-16 fighters only as a “stopgap” measure.

The decision to fly solo in developing a fighter jet comes as Turkey distances itself from its North Atlantic Treaty Organization partners in Europe and North America, and seeks closer ties with its Middle Eastern neighbors. In November, Turkey disputed NATO plans for a missile shield against a possible Iranian attack and has objected to the alliance sharing information with Israel.

Turkey assembles the F-16s on contract from Lockheed Martin at a Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) plant. The government named state-controlled TAI, based on the outskirts of Ankara, as the general coordinator of the new fighter jet project. The Turkish Defense Industry’s Procurement agency SSM has allotted some $20 million for a two-year conceptual design study.

“It’s a large endeavor. I’m skeptical that they would be able to do the project on their own since Turkey didn’t have the adequate technological know-how,” said one aerospace executive intimately involved with the design and production of the Israeli fighter jet Lavi in the 1980s.

“But it’s not just technological know-how. Developing a fighter jet requires billions and billions of dollars. It’s certainly not the same as assembling an aircraft. It takes a very long time to develop the technology and then you need to have the influx of funding to bring it all together,” the executive, who spoke on condition he not be named, told The Media Line.

Turkish industry officials told The Media Line that the government decision didn’t make sense. Turkey was currently so heavily engaged in joint international aircraft design projects such as the F-35 that it wouldn’t be feasible to embark on such a costly and risky venture, the officials said.

While hardly world class, the Turkish defense industry is growing and modernizing. But it remains dependent on foreign technology. TAI has designed the Hurkus, a basic training aircraft, but it has yet to make its maiden flight. It has also rolled out an unmanned aerial vehicle this year called the ANKA.

“Development is very, very expensive. Israel was a small country without a big defense budget. Even when we had the infrastructure we decided to give up on it because it was just too expensive,” the executive said, adding that any development today would likely be more successful with international partners.

Israel eventually scrapped the Lavi — built to be a competitor with the F-16 –under heavy US pressure and from a lack of funds.

Defense Minister Gonul said Turkey might cooperate with South Korea, which was developing the KF-X fighter jet with Indonesia. However, that project has sputtered due to lack of funding.
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article219778.ece

[Carlos Lima]

Tem sempre a chance de isso ser pressão para que os turcos produzam mais partes do F-35 já que logo logo eles acabam de produzir F-16.

Por muito menos os EUA caparam o Lavi...



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CB_Lima

[AlbertoRJ]

Seria um blefe?

[]'s

[Carlos Lima]

Seria um blefe?

[]'s

Não necessariamente um blefe, mas assim como a Austrália e outros países é mais uma tentativa de obter mais vantagens.

Não dúvido dos turcos produzirem o seu caça, mas acho que as atuais circunstâncias não ajudam.

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CB_Lima

[NovaTO]

Pode ser blefe, mas acredito mais no interesse estratégico deles de ter uma linha de caças mais "independente" dos americanos. E acredito que essa é uma oportunidade que não podemos perder, se for para frente.


"Dilma busca na Turquia parceria em jato militar


Com o objetivo de conquistar maior autonomia em setores militares considerados como fundamentais e não ficar dependente de fornecedores estrangeiros, o governo brasileiro parte em busca de acordos estratégicos para a coprodução de jatos de guerra e aviões não tripulados. Na semana passada, o governo de Dilma Rousseff aproveitou a viagem à Turquia para lançar as bases de projetos militares que serão desenvolvidos com Ancara nos próximos anos.

Dilma já havia mencionado a ampliação da frota aviões não tripulados para o monitoramento das fronteiras, como a da Amazônia, e o tema fez parte da campanha eleitoral. Há poucas semanas, a Polícia Federal colocou em operação o primeiro Veículo Aéreo Não Tripulado, conhecido como Vant. Nos cinco primeiros dias de uso, rastreou mil quilômetros de fronteira com Argentina e Paraguai, principalmente em busca de informações sobre o tráfico de drogas.

Mais recentemente, o Palácio do Planalto aprovou uma série de benefícios de taxas aduaneiras e incentivos para o setor de defesa, também com a meta de fortalecer a produção nacional.

Autonomia

Com os turcos, as conversas entre Dilma, o presidente Abdullah Gul e o ministro da Defesa, Celso Amorim, chegaram a um entendimento de que ambos os países procuram maior autonomia militar.

Um dos principais projetos é o do veículo não tripulado, uma iniciativa dos turcos que até agora compravam a tecnologia de Israel. “Nosso objetivo é o de desenvolver um produto nacional e poucos países estão sendo convidados para fazer parte”, explicou o embaixador da Turquia no Brasil, Ersin Erçin. “O Brasil é um dos parceiros que queremos ter nessa fabricação”, disse.

O Brasil também está interessado em participar do novo caça que a Turquia pretende fabricar. Um modelo já está em estudo numa parceria com a Coreia do Sul.

Outro projeto é a construção de um avião de combate, algo que apenas poucos países hoje têm. “Estamos formando um consórcio para essa fabricação e queremos o Brasil envolvido no projeto”, contou o embaixador, indicando que a reunião da semana passada chegou a um entendimento de que esse projeto irá adiante. Uma das opções seria a de usar parte da tecnologia já desenvolvida pela Embraer.

Da parte dos turcos, o acordo também é visto como estratégico. Desde a adesão da Turquia à Otan, o setor de defesa do país foi sucateado, já que o governo americano decidiu doar armamentos por anos para Ancara. Se não bastasse, os turcos passaram a comprar novas tecnologias de Israel, entre elas a de aviões não tripulados. Hoje, 50% das armas turcas são de fabricação nacional. A meta é que, em 20 anos, 80% do arsenal – aviões e equipamentos – sejam turcos.

Fonte: O Estado de São Paulo – Jamil Chade, via NOTIMP"

Publicado no CAVOK e PB.

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[DELTA22]

Acho que na questão dos VANTs, como diz a reportagem, é possível sair algo com os turcos, é mais crível, mais palpável, muito menos irreal. Quanto ao caça tripulado, nem me iludo.

Detalhe: nessa matéria fica claro que as reportagens sobre esse tema que saíram nos últimos dias (inclusive a da Folha de S. Paulo) estão baseadas em declarações do embaixador turco, não de autoridades brasileiras.

[]'s a todos.

[Boss]

Mas outra notícia deu a entender que o Amorim queria sim entrar no negócio com os turcos.

Seria uma boa fazer "amizades" por aquelas bandas, já que aqui por perto só tem dois de paus.

[DELTA22]

Exato. O jornal "deu a entender".

Trecho da matéria da Folha:

O Brasil tem interesse em participar do desenvolvimento turco de caças de quinta geração -mais modernos do que a FAB deve adquirir por meio da concorrência. O que o país tem a oferecer é a experiência da Embraer na área de aerodinâmica.

A Folha é que disse o que está escrito acima, baseada em... ???

Agora, releia trecho da matéria do Estadão:

O Brasil também está interessado em participar do novo caça que a Turquia pretende fabricar. Um modelo já está em estudo numa parceria com a Coreia do Sul.

Outro projeto é a construção de um avião de combate, algo que apenas poucos países hoje têm. “Estamos formando um consórcio para essa fabricação e queremos o Brasil envolvido no projeto”, contou o embaixador, indicando que a reunião da semana passada chegou a um entendimento de que esse projeto irá adiante. Uma das opções seria a de usar parte da tecnologia já desenvolvida pela Embraer.

Só isso.

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[marcelo l.]

Eu vejo que primeiro antes de pensar em embarcar em qualquer projeto, mais que o país que escolhemos, a primeira coisa a pensar é qual o grau de comprometimento que o executivo teria, seja qual partido ou regime uma passada na história brasileira informa que projetos militares tiveram fortes restrições, levando a quebra do parque nacional.

Por isso, antes de qualquer condicionante pense-se qual seria nosso comprometimento, passado essa fase quais seriam as implicações tanto políticas como industriais para o país da escolha e quais produtos seriam melhor atendam as nossas necessidades e por último como seria possível conseguir as tecnologias para aquele deter minado produto.

Eu acredito que assim como os franceses, russos, italianos; os turcos nos ofereçam outros projetos ou parcerias, cabe ao executivo analisar junto com a força qual seria o melhor, se existe vontade e dinheiro.

* aqui o termo é amplo, tem necessidades políticas dentro da idéia que o Celso Amorim e a entrevista mesmo da Dilma em Ancara de formação de blocos por interesses comuns, econômicas se aquelas tecnologias atendem a nosso projeto industrial e militar se as forças precisam.

[suntsé]

Particularmente, eu espero que de certo. A Turquia é um apaís bastante decidido em questões de defesa.

[sapao]

Acho dificilimo sair algo, pois como coloquei no topico do VANT temos um porém na parceria: Israel.

A nossa maior industria de avionicos (AEL Sistemas) é uma subsidiaria deles, assim como a parceria para a montagem de VANT´s com a EMBRAER.

Não acho que seja possivel, no momento atual, compartilhar de projetos com ambos devido ao desgaste politico que eles teriam internamente se tal fato ocorresse.

Por isso acredito que permanecemos com Israel (que de fato tem passado tecnologia para nós) e nossa intenção com os turcos permaneça "intenção", pelo menos por enquanto.

[DELTA22]

Se nem os VATs... Morreu Maria!

Caríssimos, vamos deixar esse assunto (parceira Brasil-Turquia no setor aeroespacial) por ai e voltemos ao que interessa.

[]'s a todos.