TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2: GRIPEN NG

Assuntos em discussão: Força Aérea Brasileira, forças aéreas estrangeiras e aviação militar.

Moderadores: Glauber Prestes, Conselho de Moderação

Qual o caça ideal para o FX?

F/A-18 Super Hornet
284
22%
Rafale
619
47%
Gripen NG
417
32%
 
Total de votos: 1320

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Tighrope
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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57196 Mensagem por Tighrope » Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:08 am

Juliano_ssa escreveu:
No entanto, o principal trunfo da Boeing foi no dia 20 de março, quando o presidente dos EUA, Barack Obama se reuniu com Rousseff em sua primeira visita ao Brasil. De acordo com funcionários da Casa Branca, Dilma levantou a proposta do Super Hornet em primeiro lugar durante uma reunião privada e Obama repetiu as garantias de seu governo sobre a transferência completa da tecnologia –


Fonte: Flight International / Stephem Trimble – Tradução: Cavok

e nem boeing ou EUA governo controlando o Congresso, assim que podem fazer muita promessa :lol:




Jobim diz ter conseguido reduzir o preço para US$ 6 bilhões (cerca de R$ 10 bilhões), mesmo preço da opção mais barata, o Gripen. http://www.band.com.br/jornalismo/brasi ... 0000391273
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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57197 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:34 am

Carl Bildt deve entender de aviação militar tanto quanto os políticos de uma maneira geral.

Ele deve desconhecer que GBU-12/49 Paveway II, RBS-15 e AGM-65 Maverick, Taurus KEPD-350 e pods Litening II fazem parte do arsenal de armas dos Gripen da Flygvapnet.

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/gripen-red-flag-1.jpg
Red Flag 2008

Se o único caça sueco, o Gripen JAS-39 (Jakt (air-to-air), Attack (air-to-surface), and Spaning (reconnaissance)), não pudesse realizar missões ar-terra, desde a aposentadoria do AJ-37 teria havido uma brecha descomunal e negligente nas defesas suecas. Coisa que os suecos não são. E dificilmente o Gripen teria sido exportado.

Um coisa é certa. Os políticos suecos decidiram que a ação da Flygvapnet na Líbia será restrita a missões ar-ar e reconhecimento. Pelos militares suecos não seria assim. Mas quem manda são os políticos:
One of the Swedish pilots going to Libya shared his thoughts on Wiseman's blog. He strongly disagrees with the decision to not allow the Gripen planes perform ground attack mission in Libya.

Google translated:
I have for some time been training on all types of missions we are supposed to perform in and around Libya. Dropping a precision-guided GBU 12/49 with the help of one of the world's best LDPs, with one of the world's best airplanes - undoubtedly the best value - is not something that can be considered to be out on the edge of knowledge framework.

But then comes the question: "Can you be absolutely sure not to harm civilians or that the bomb does not hit the wrong?". The question may seem legitimate but in fact it is completely unnecessary. Does it matter that he has already decided the result of the discussion, perhaps in all ignorance. You can of course never be absolutely sure of the result of a non-trivial chain of events that bombing, regardless of the quality of the components. The control fins can break, civilians can drive tanks.

I believe no politician would consider to micromanage the doctor in a hospital. What surgery is recommended for which ailments are up to the doctor who carefully weighs the risks for and against. Surgery is always a risk, but comparable to the risk of the option, it is perhaps, or maybe not, it worth taking to save the patient. But the fact remains, it is the doctor who makes the assessment and no medical unskilled, briefed or not, would ever put themselves in this detailed process. The doctor managed to always care about the patient's best interests.


When Urban Ahlin (s) now raljant announces that I can not determine if targets are civilians or military, because I fly so high, and also insinuates that I would bomb even though I was not sure, I'm a bit puzzled and wonder still how much detailed knowledge He sits inside with? My education is in all cases the time and complexity quite similar physician. Not that politicians are perceptive, but he really that short time managed to get acquainted with all details relating to this subject so he can micromanage this way?

In fact, by taking away our ability to hit targets on the ground with a broadside of limitations so it will probably mean the same thing as if they banned a certain type of surgery, civilians could have been saved are not saved. The curious may be wondering why.




Editado pela última vez por Penguin em Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:39 am, em um total de 2 vezes.
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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57198 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:36 am

Tighrope escreveu:
Juliano_ssa escreveu:
No entanto, o principal trunfo da Boeing foi no dia 20 de março, quando o presidente dos EUA, Barack Obama se reuniu com Rousseff em sua primeira visita ao Brasil. De acordo com funcionários da Casa Branca, Dilma levantou a proposta do Super Hornet em primeiro lugar durante uma reunião privada e Obama repetiu as garantias de seu governo sobre a transferência completa da tecnologia –


Fonte: Flight International / Stephem Trimble – Tradução: Cavok

e nem boeing ou EUA governo controlando o Congresso, assim que podem fazer muita promessa :lol:
Como pedido pelo Governo brasileiro, o Congresso deu as garantias solicitadas.




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57199 Mensagem por JL » Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:53 am

Do jeito que ficaram as forças de kadafi, até a FAB faria missões de ataque ao solo com pleno êxito. Se trata de acertar caminhões e pick-ups no deserto ou em estradas e a defesa AA se limita a canhões de 14,5mm e 23 mm e claro aos MANPADS russos.




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57200 Mensagem por crubens » Ter Abr 05, 2011 11:06 am

Bem que a FAB poderia fazer como os suecos, agora que a coisa esfriou, e fazer um ar-arzinho só de propaganda. :mrgreen:




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57201 Mensagem por DELTA22 » Ter Abr 05, 2011 11:10 am

Penguin escreveu:
Tighrope escreveu:
e nem boeing ou EUA governo controlando o Congresso, assim que podem fazer muita promessa :lol:
Como pedido pelo Governo brasileiro, o Congresso deu as garantias solicitadas.
Você está falando da carta dos líderes republicano e democrata no Congresso americano? São essas as "garantias"?

[]'s.




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57202 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 11:37 am

DELTA22 escreveu:[ quote="Penguin"]
Tighrope escreveu:
e nem boeing ou EUA governo controlando o Congresso, assim que podem fazer muita promessa :lol:
Como pedido pelo Governo brasileiro, o Congresso deu as garantias solicitadas.
Você está falando da carta dos líderes republicano e democrata no Congresso americano? São essas as "garantias"?

[]'s.[/quote]

--------------------------------------------

Houve carta do DoD, DoS, Presidente e do Congresso. Além disso haverá contratos.
Creio que não há outros instrumentos além desses.
Isso vale para qualquer outro país.

[]s




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57203 Mensagem por AlbertoRJ » Ter Abr 05, 2011 12:31 pm

Penguin escreveu:Carl Bildt deve entender de aviação militar tanto quanto os políticos de uma maneira geral.
Pelo menos ele sabe que o caça é perna-curta.

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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57204 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 1:52 pm

O NG deve sanar essa deficiência.




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57205 Mensagem por Carlos Lima » Ter Abr 05, 2011 2:25 pm

Penguin escreveu:O NG deve sanar essa deficiência.
Quando (e se) ele tornar uma realidade.

Lembrar que a príncipio a Suécia não precisa de uma aeronave com "longo alcance" e o REVO do C/D já ajudava o caso deles.

[029]

[]s
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CB_Lima = Carlos Lima :)
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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57206 Mensagem por Bender » Ter Abr 05, 2011 6:11 pm

Penguin escreveu:O NG deve sanar essa deficiência.
Já estou fazendo as alterações necessárias no meu photoshop aqui Santiago... 8-]

SDS.




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57207 Mensagem por Carlos Mathias » Ter Abr 05, 2011 6:27 pm

Mas faça as modificações com bastante "apreço", viu? :roll: :mrgreen:




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57208 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 8:17 pm

cb_lima escreveu:
Penguin escreveu:O NG deve sanar essa deficiência.
Quando (e se) ele tornar uma realidade.

Lembrar que a príncipio a Suécia não precisa de uma aeronave com "longo alcance" e o REVO do C/D já ajudava o caso deles.

[029]

[]s
CB_Lima
Claro, claro.

[]s




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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57209 Mensagem por Penguin » Ter Abr 05, 2011 9:40 pm





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Re: TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2

#57210 Mensagem por AlbertoRJ » Ter Abr 05, 2011 11:24 pm

Waiting continues for Brazil’s F-X2 contract decision
By Stephen Trimble

DATE:04/04/11
SOURCE:Flight International

Between September 2009 and January 2011, Brazil's F-X2 fighter competition seemed more like a power struggle than an evaluation process, with the state's political leadership favouring the Dassault Rafale and the air force preferring either of two alternatives. In this narrative, the winning bid would belong to the victorious side of an internal battle within the Brazilian bureaucracy, with most bets on the Rafale - President Luiz Inácio "Lula" da Silva's declared favourite.
However, the dynamics of the competition, worth at least $6 billion, completely changed on 6 December 2010, when da Silva ceded the F-X2 decision to his successor and former chief of staff Dilma Rousseff, who became president on 1 January 2011.

Instead of a logjam, the F-X2 programme was suddenly given a clean slate three years after the Brazilian air force formally reopened the acquisition process.
Rather than choose from the three original bids submitted in February 2009, Rousseff extended the evaluation process for a new analysis, which will take at least several months.
At the same time, Rousseff is also balancing projected outlay for the F-X2 contract against one of her other top domestic goals - maintaining a stable economy.
Although Brazil's gross domestic product has accelerated, despite a global recession, inflation is still rising faster than government targets. In an attempt to put a brake on rising consumer prices, Rousseff slashed government spending, with the ministry of defence's acquisition portfolio suffering some of the deepest cuts - 26.5% this year.
Defence minister Nelson Jobim played down the potential impact cuts could have on the F-X2 evaluation but left himself room for manoeuvre, perhaps, with a carefully worded statement saying the budget cut would "not necessarily" hit the F-X2 project this year.
In any case, Nelson points out that outlays for the next-generation fighter will not be registered until 2012 or 2013, even if the winner was selected this year. The selection would also be followed by a long period of firm price negotiation which, Jobim notes, lasted 12 months during the Brazilian navy's recent submarines acquisition. The shift in political leadership has given new hope to the Rafale's competitors - the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG.
"We're encouraged by what we've seen since Rousseff was inaugurated earlier this year," Joe McAndrew, Boeing's vice-president of business development for Europe, Israel and the Americas, says, noting that the result will be "judged on the merits of the airplane and the value of the [economic] offset".
Boeing's confidence may also be bolstered by other signs that momentum in the competition is moving away from the Rafale.
Last month, Rousseff was widely reported to have told Timothy Geithner, secretary of the US Department of Treasury, that the Super Hornet was her favourite in the evaluation.
Rousseff's reported endorsement follows a recent disclosure that Frederico Curado, chief executive of Embraer, also supports the Super Hornet bid. In a diplomatic cable dated January 2009, Curado informed then-US ambassador Clifford Sobel that he "privately hopes Boeing wins", although Embraer's official position on the F-X2 is neutral.

However, Boeing's biggest trump card was played on 20 March, when US President Barack Obama met Rousseff on his first visit to Brazil. According to White House officials, Rousseff raised the Super Hornet bid first during a private meeting and Obama repeated his administration's assurances about full transfer of technology - the key sticking point in the Boeing bid. There is a strongly held view in some quarters of Brazilian government and industry that US export policies cannot be relied on. In October 2009, Brigadier Engineer Venancio Alvarenga Gomes, director of projects for Brazil's aerospace technology command, was caught on camera issuing a warning during a lecture about his organisation's experience with the US export control process. Foremost among concerns was a perceived inconsistency in the application of US policies, which had forced the Brazilian air force to scramble repeatedly on previous programmes, Gomes said.
Gomes's presentation concluded with an image of the F/A-18E with a red "X" stamped over it - not a great endorsement from the head of the Brazilian air force's top aeronautical research organisation. On the other hand, the security relationship between the USA and Brazil has continued to evolve since 1977, when Brazil unilaterally withdrew military co-operation with the USA.

In 2008, the US Department of Defense reconvened a bilateral working group with Brazil for the first time in six years. Last November, the USA and Brazil signed a general security military information agreement, which allows the USA to exchange classified information with Brazil.
The agreement was signed despite serious diplomatic disagreements. Only two months earlier, da Silva's administration had refused to support US efforts to invoke United Nations sanctions on Iran. "There have been significant policy dust-ups between the US and Brazil, especially over Iran, and nobody made any mention of technology transfer," McAndrew says. Before Wikileaks indicated the Super Hornet was a secret favourite of Brazilian authorities, Saab's bid enjoyed that status. Last January, the Folha de São Paulo newspaper leaked a summary of the air force's 27,000-page evaluation report, which reportedly ranked the Gripen NG as the service's first choice to replace the Dassault Mirage 2000-5.
Bengt Janer, Saab's Gripen campaign director in Brazil, says Brazil's air force and industry have a chance to become part of a supply chain featuring the next-generation of Sweden's single-engined fighter.
"Although we are proposing a development programme which could be seen as a riskier business," Janer says, "this development programme is based on a fighter that has been sold to five countries. The air force saw this early and they said this is what they want."

Saab's sales pitch is less about political forces than building industrial capability, he says. "What is unrestricted technology?" Janer asks, referencing the air force's requirement for export release. "What is it that really interests a country like Brazil? Is it a radar? Is it an engine? What Saab proposed is we share technology with Brazil in the integration of different systems."
Sweden may lack the star quality of a state visit by a US or French president, but the Gripen has been fully supported by its country's political leadership. In addition to several visits by defence minister Sten Tolgfors in 2009, Brazil has also been personally lobbied by Sweden's king and queen.
If any country has claimed political advantage in the competition so far, however, it has been France. On Brazilian independence day, 7 September, in 2009, visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy secured da Silva's promise that Brazil would buy 36 Rafales in exchange for France purchasing 12 KC-390s. That deal was followed by a long period of price adjustment. By August, local reports had Rafale emerging as the top-ranked aircraft in the air force evaluation, even though it was still the most expensive. The ranking was reportedly changed to make technology transfer more important than operating cost.

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Fonte:Flight Global




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