Inglaterra e França vão dividir Porta Aviões

[Penguin]

France, Britain In Talks On Warship Timeshare
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 31 Aug 2010 10:20

PARIS - Historic rivals and modern day allies France and Britain are in talks on pooling their naval strength, officials said Aug. 31, after reports they might share a fleet of aircraft carriers.

BRITAIN HAS TWO aircraft carriers, one of which is the HMS Ark Royal. Its other carrier is the HMS Illustrious. (AFP)
Neither Paris nor London would confirm a report in the British press that the Royal Navy and the Marine Nationale might share carriers, but French officials said the defense ministers would hold a news conference on Sept. 3.

"We're in a phase where we must absolutely synchronize our budget cuts so that, in the end, there's no loss in our military capacities," a senior French diplomat told AFP on the condition of anonymity.

"There was a lot of work over the summer. We are expecting a lot from the Franco-British summit in November. I hope there'll be real options," he said, adding that talks had been under way since June 18.

Another source close to the matter told AFP discussions were under way at a political level on possible cooperation in the use of aircraft carriers.

Separately, another French official confirmed that France's Defence Minister Herve Morin and Britain's Liam Fox would hold a news conference in Paris on Sept. 3, but declined to comment on the Aug. 31 press reports.

Any formal announcement is likely to have to wait until the Franco-British summit in November, when President Nicolas Sarkozy and Prime Minister David Cameron will be able to study the options, officials said.

The British daily The Times reported that Paris and London plan to share the use of two British and one French aircraft carriers in order to save money while still maintaining a vessel always at sea for their common defense.

Britain's Ministry of Defence refused to confirm or deny the report.

"The defense secretary has made clear that tough decisions will need to be made but the complex process of a strategic defense and security review will be concluded in the autumn," a spokesman said.

"Speculation at this stage about its outcome is entirely unfounded."

Nevertheless, the reports followed a series of public suggestions that France and Britain are preparing an announcement.

Last week, in a keynote foreign policy address, Sarkozy said: "I heard the declarations of our British allies on bilateral cooperation with France. We are ready to discuss this without taboo.

"France is ready to undertake concrete plans to allow us to accomplish the toughest combat missions," he added.

France and Britain were hard hit by the international financial crisis and are struggling to fund their militaries - the two most powerful in the European Union - while both are stretched by war in Afghanistan.

Britain has two aircraft carriers, though there are times when both HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious are in dock, and has ordered two replacements at a cost of 5.2 billion pounds ($8 billion, 6.4 billion euros).

France operates the powerful Charles de Gaulle, a nuclear-powered vessel capable of launching fixed wing aircraft, but it is alone in its class in the French fleet and often at home undergoing maintenance.

According to reports, if Britain and France are able to agree to time their patrols so that there is always one carrier at sea, London may be able to cancel or downgrade one of the replacements - or sell it on.

For centuries the French and British fleets were the greatest rivals on the high seas, clashing regularly as the European neighbors built parallel global empires and raided each other's territory and shipping.

As recently as 1940 the Royal Navy sank a French fleet off the coast of Algeria - killing more than 1,200 sailors - amid fears it would fall under Nazi control after the World War II German invasion of France.

Since then, however, France and Britain have become allies within NATO and often conduct joint operations and exercises.

[Penguin]

UK-and-France-tobr-share-aircraft-carriers
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... riers.html


BRITAIN and France are preparing to reveal unprecedented plans to share the use of their aircraft carriers in a controversial step to maintain military power in an era of cost-cutting.

In a potential threat to thousands of shipyard jobs, the move would make it easier for Britain to scrap or downgrade one of the two replacement carriers which are already under construction at a cost of £5.2billion.

David Cameron and President Sarkozy are expected to outline the proposal in a November summit, which will lead to British and French flagships working together and protecting the interests of both countries.

The arrangement, expected to come into force soon after the announcement, would ensure that one of three ships - one French, two British - was always on duty patrolling the seas. At present, there are periods when both ageing British vessels - HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious - are in dock.

Critics questioned the viability of such a partnership, noting British and French interests historically differ. Gwyn Prins, a research professor at the London School of Economics, said: "At first glance it may seem sensible to pool aircraft carriers with the French. But a moment's reflection in the light of past history and of modern geopolitics shows why that is unwise."

The plan comes as the Armed Forces are under pressure to cut costs and continue to protect Britain's national interests, as part of the defence review. A final decision on the future of the replacement carriers will come in October in the Comprehensive Spending Review. One carrier could be scrapped, built to a lower specification, or even sold to another nation.

Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, meets French counterparts on Friday, having repeatedly visited Paris for discussions before the election.

A Whitehall source said: "Liam has made it clear that we want more co-operation as we have to face up to the world we are living in. The advantage is that if we are going to have one carrier, then at least we can project our power on the sea even if we go down to a single carrier."

Discussions are under way to devise a protocol in case a British interest, such as the Falkland Islands, comes under threat when the French are in charge. Each carrier would remain within its domestic chain of command, with the British vessels only taking orders from Royal Navy officers.

President Sarkozy told ambassadors last week: "France is prepared to undertake concrete projects. I heard our British allies' statements on bilateral co-operation with France. We will discuss this with them without taboos and take important decisions in November."

Sources close to the National Security Council, the new Cabinet group which decides the direction of British foreign policy, said that Dr Fox was minded to give the go-ahead to both carriers, but the second may have its capability downgraded.

A cut-down carrier would be able to carry an army brigade and could be used as a base for a troop landing, which would mean it could take helicopters rather than jets.

However, the fast jets envisaged for the new British carriers would not be able to fly off the French version and French aircraft would be unable to use the British model.

A Navy source said that the plan would add welcome flexibility to combined operations, but added: "Using each other's carriers would require decisions to be made at the strategic level so that national aims on any given operation would be the same."

[Penguin]

Don’t blame coalition for UK-France aircraft carrier plan
August 31, 2010 8:10amby Jim Pickard
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2010/08 ... rier-plan/

The “bilateral carrier group interoperability initiative” was proposed by the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, at his summit meeting with Gordon Brown in London in March (2008).

[tflash]

Isto deixa em aberto, uma base norte-americana nas Malvinas, sob pretexto de defender o aliado.

[FOXTROT]

terra.com.br

França e Reino Unido descartam compartilhar porta-aviões
03 de setembro de 2010

Os ministros da Defesa da França e do Reino Unido, Hervé Morin e Liam Fox, respectivamente, descartaram nesta sexta compartilhar porta-aviões, mas disseram que cooperarão para pôr em comum capacidades militares em outros campos, citando o avião de transporte militar A400M ou os aviões-tanque.

Fox assegurou que é "irreal" que ambos os países compartilhem porta-aviões, como foi especulado ultimamente em alguns meios de comunicação, durante uma entrevista coletiva conjunta com Morin ao término de uma reunião entre ambos em Paris.

Morin citou como pontos-chave da cooperação o A400M, os aviões-tanque ou uma eventual cooperação sobre os meios navais, mas reiterou que não contemplam um acordo comum em relação aos porta-aviões.

Ambos os ministros desmentiram assim a informação publicada no dia 31 de agosto por The Times, na qual se afirmava que a França e o Reino Unido estavam dispostos a compartilhar os porta-aviões para economizar custos e manter o poder militar.

[Lord Nauta]

terra.com.br

França e Reino Unido descartam compartilhar porta-aviões
03 de setembro de 2010

Os ministros da Defesa da França e do Reino Unido, Hervé Morin e Liam Fox, respectivamente, descartaram nesta sexta compartilhar porta-aviões, mas disseram que cooperarão para pôr em comum capacidades militares em outros campos, citando o avião de transporte militar A400M ou os aviões-tanque.

Fox assegurou que é "irreal" que ambos os países compartilhem porta-aviões, como foi especulado ultimamente em alguns meios de comunicação, durante uma entrevista coletiva conjunta com Morin ao término de uma reunião entre ambos em Paris.

Morin citou como pontos-chave da cooperação o A400M, os aviões-tanque ou uma eventual cooperação sobre os meios navais, mas reiterou que não contemplam um acordo comum em relação aos porta-aviões.

Ambos os ministros desmentiram assim a informação publicada no dia 31 de agosto por The Times, na qual se afirmava que a França e o Reino Unido estavam dispostos a compartilhar os porta-aviões para economizar custos e manter o poder militar.

ENFIM A REALIDADE!



LORD NAUTA

[cabeça de martelo]

Nunca pensei que o fizessem...

[talharim]

So podia ter partido um ideia esdruxula dessas dos franceses !

Toma cuidado Portugal daqui a pouco as biscates se oferecem para vcs !!!!

[P44]

já somos enrrabados há séculos pelos bifes, quero mais é que eles se fo......

[tgcastilho]

já somos enrrabados há séculos pelos bifes, quero mais é que eles se fo......

Só se fores tu..

[P44]

já somos enrrabados há séculos pelos bifes, quero mais é que eles se fo......

Só se fores tu..

xarape Bourne

[tgcastilho]

Só se fores tu..

xarape Bourne

hey, hey, olha lá os insultos...

[cabeça de martelo]

So podia ter partido um ideia esdruxula dessas dos franceses !

Toma cuidado Portugal daqui a pouco as biscates se oferecem para vcs !!!!

Nãaaaaaaaaa, eles estão mal mas não tanto...

[tflash]

Temos capacidade para operar um Sea Harrier, por isso se eles quiserem usar o Bérrio por uns seis meses e partilhar a despesa, pode ser...

[Marino]

Para o Talha entrar em crise:

Navy to reduce to smallest size ever to save carriers
The Navy is set to be reduced to the smallest size in its history
after admirals yesterday offered drastic reductions in the fleet in
order to save two new aircraft carriers from defence cuts.

By Thomas Harding and James Kirkup
Published: 10:22PM BST 07 Oct 2010

Navy chiefs yesterday offered to make cuts that would reduce the
senior service to its smallest since the time of Henry VIII

Under the plans, the number of warships would be cut by almost half to
just 25, with frigates, destroyers, submarines, minesweepers and all
amphibious craft scrapped.

Even if built, the new carriers could sail without any British
aircraft to fly from them after admirals "mortgaged everything" to
persuade ministers not to abandon the £5.2 billion programme. The
ships could also be delayed for years and redesigned to save money,
defence sources have disclosed.

Related Articles

Call to 'mothball' huge chunks of the Army
Britain and France could share nuclear testing site
Con Coughlin: The Navy's going overboard with cuts
Forces budget will fall below Nato minimum
£16bn defence contract 'dead in the water'
Liam Fox: defence cuts will have 'grave consequences'

In a final appeal to the National Security Council, Navy chiefs
yesterday offered to make cuts that would reduce the senior service to
its smallest since the time of Henry VIII.

One new aircraft carrier is already under construction, but the fate
of the second has emerged as the central issue of the Government's
Strategic Defence and Security Review, which is supposed to frame
military planning for the next decade.

With less than two weeks until the review is due to report, government
spokesmen last night insisted that "no decisions have been taken" on
the second carrier.

A meeting of senior Cabinet members yesterday stopped short of a
formal decision on the carrier order, although insiders now believe
both ships will be built. However, the timetable and the specification
for the carriers remain in the balance.

Options still on the table include delaying delivery by several years
and redesigning one or both ships to carry cheaper jets or even
helicopters. Alternatively, the second carrier could be built but put
on "extended readiness", effectively mothballed as soon as it was
completed.

Army commanders and General Sir David Richards, the new Chief of the
Defence Staff, have questioned the cost of the carriers and their
potential military value.

The Navy has argued that having two carriers is vital if Britain is to
retain its place as a top-rank military power. Its case has been
bolstered by the procurement contracts for the carriers that commit
the Government to place alternative work with the shipyards even if a
carrier is abandoned.

It is understood that the Navy has offered to slim down to as few as
12 surface ships, leaving it with six Type 45 destroyers and six Type
23 frigates. In addition, its submarine fleet would reduce to seven
Astute hunter-killers plus the four Trident nuclear deterrent boats.
With the two carriers, this would reduce the fleet by half from its
current total of 42 ships.

"If we want the two carriers it means we have to mortgage everything
and by that I mean reducing the fleet by almost a half," said a senior
Navy source.

Navy analysts warned that the cuts would mean Britain reducing its
fleet to the size of the Italian navy and almost half the size of the
French.

Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, warned in a letter leaked to The
Daily Telegraph last week that the Navy could lose its entire
amphibious landing capability and be unable to mount even a relatively
small-scale operation such as the intervention in Sierra Leone. To
prevent that outcome, ministers have discussed reconfiguring the first
new carrier as a helicopter platform that would also carry Royal
Marine commandos. The carrier would then ultimately replace the
existing helicopter ship, HMS Ocean.

Navy sources have said that the reduction would mean Britain would
find it "extremely difficult" to protect sea lanes on which 90 per
cent of the country's trade relies.

It would also have to drop either anti-piracy patrols in the Middle
East, protecting oil platforms in the Gulf or counter-narcotics
operations in the Caribbean.

As well as defining strategic needs, ministers are trying to cut the
£37 billion annual defence budget as part of the Coalition's deficit
reduction plan. Even though those cuts are likely to be held well
below 10 per cent, Dr Fox still has to fund a £38 billion "black hole"
in the military order book.

The carriers are currently designed to carry specially built Short
Take-Off Vertical Landing Jets, which are significantly more expensive
than conventional catapult-launched fighters.

One option discussed at the council was delaying at least one of the
new carriers and equipping it with a catapult.

Ministers debated that option to allow “interoperability” with other
nations, including France and the US, whose carrier-based jets are
catapult-launched.

A row has broken out over the fate of the Harrier and Tornado
warplanes. One type of jet is almost certain to be retired early. The
RAF, which controls the Tornado fleet, wants the Harriers scrapped.
The Navy wants them saved. The row remains unresolved and retiring the
Harriers remains a strong possibility.

That could mean carriers enter service even though Britain lacked
warplanes to fly from them. To fill the “capability gap”, the UK would
have to borrow jets from an ally.

A No 10 spokesman said: “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.