B-90
Moderador: Conselho de Moderação
- Ilya Ehrenburg
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 2449
- Registrado em: Ter Set 08, 2009 5:47 pm
- Agradeceram: 1 vez
B-90
Subarino Russo, revolucionário.
Segue o texto, em inglês:
Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Russia's Not So Super Secret Special Submarine
The Sub Report has an article up on a new submarine produced in "secret" in Russia. I have worked with Russians since 1996 and trust me, they don't have any secrets that date back to the cold war, they were all sold long ago to the highest bidder. However, that didn't explain why when I read about this news today, something rang a bell.
The Sevmash plant in Severodvinsk, Arkhangelsk Oblast, has completed construction of the B-90 “Sarov”, a new diesel-fuelled submarine with a nuclear reactor as a supplementary power generator.
The B-90 “Sarov”, which is part of the project 20 120, left the shipyard on Friday, a press note from the Sevmash company reports.
The vessel is unique with its combination of diesel and reactor engine. The sub is likely to be applied by the Northern Fleet as spy vessel in northern waters.
The vessel has been designed by the Rubin engineering company in 1989. Construction was started at the Krasnoe Sormovo shipyard in Nizhnii Novgorod, and then later continued at the Sevmash plant.
It took us a few minutes to remember where we had heard about this submarine, and most likely, you have probably heard about this submarine and didn't know it also. Project 20120 was the submarine whose details were accidentally revealed on the internet earlier this year on the City of Sarov website.
According to the official press release, and other Russian news services, the submarine is a technology demonstrator. Designed in 1989, one has to wonder if this was a cold war project that was better left unfinished. Unless Russia has invented a light switch for turning a nuclear reactor on and off, it is hard to consider this type of hybrid powered submarine some sort of revolutionary design. But after doing a bit more research, it may be a revolutionary design though for AIP, Stratfor detailed back in September:
Sarov was once the secretive closed city Arzamas-16, also known as the Russian Los Alamos for its role in the Soviet nuclear weapons program. Though nuclear submarine construction is well-established at the Sevmash shipyards in Severodvinsk, Sarov could be a site for further research into the use of radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs).
RTGs use the heat of radioactive decay from radioisotopes like plutonium-238 and strontium-90 to generate electricity. They are much simpler than full-fledged naval reactors and have been used to power remote lighthouses and weather stations as well as deep space probes unable to rely on solar energy.
However, there are technological hurdles that must be overcome. RTGs have been used predominantly in situations where wattage was not the limiting factor. Modern RTGs used on NASA probes produce hundreds of watts and are about the size and weight of a 120-pound person. But to use both German and Swedish systems as a benchmark, a magnitude of 200 to 300 kilowatts is necessary for AIP. Though much of this distance can be overcome by designing an RTG specifically for this purpose and then fitting multiple RTGs to the submarine, there is still a technological gap the Russians would have had to overcome.
The point is not how an RTG-based AIP would stack up against the German or Swedish methods; rather, the point is that an RTG is rather uniquely fitted to the Russian knowledge base -- and the Sarov locale.
Though not earth-shattering, a successful AIP uniquely suited to the Russian defense industry is a potentially significant development for the next generation of Russian patrol subs -- both for domestic coastal defense and export abroad.
The specifications of the Project 20120 "super secret submarine" are:
Length: 72.6m
Width: 9.9m
Draught: 7m
Displacement: 2300/3950 tons
Diving depth: 300m
Speed: 10/17 kts
Endurance: 45 days
According to the official press release, the submarine requires a crew of 52, which is actually one more person than the Akula class SSN, so we assume one more enlisted (25 officers, 27 enlisted). While the news report quoted above claims the submarine will be used as a "spy" submarine, we see the submarine being put to use as a training vessel and technology demonstrator.
While Stratfor is speculating, all of the data we are seeing does seem to fit the picture they painted back in September. If indeed Russia has come up with a hybrid RTG-based AIP system that is as effective as European AIP designs, then it would confirm what we have been hearing that Russia's design base for submarines is still very healthy and the innovation is still there. It will be interesting to see what details come out via the media over the next few days.
Posted by Galrahn at 1:55 AM
Segue o texto, em inglês:
Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Russia's Not So Super Secret Special Submarine
The Sub Report has an article up on a new submarine produced in "secret" in Russia. I have worked with Russians since 1996 and trust me, they don't have any secrets that date back to the cold war, they were all sold long ago to the highest bidder. However, that didn't explain why when I read about this news today, something rang a bell.
The Sevmash plant in Severodvinsk, Arkhangelsk Oblast, has completed construction of the B-90 “Sarov”, a new diesel-fuelled submarine with a nuclear reactor as a supplementary power generator.
The B-90 “Sarov”, which is part of the project 20 120, left the shipyard on Friday, a press note from the Sevmash company reports.
The vessel is unique with its combination of diesel and reactor engine. The sub is likely to be applied by the Northern Fleet as spy vessel in northern waters.
The vessel has been designed by the Rubin engineering company in 1989. Construction was started at the Krasnoe Sormovo shipyard in Nizhnii Novgorod, and then later continued at the Sevmash plant.
It took us a few minutes to remember where we had heard about this submarine, and most likely, you have probably heard about this submarine and didn't know it also. Project 20120 was the submarine whose details were accidentally revealed on the internet earlier this year on the City of Sarov website.
According to the official press release, and other Russian news services, the submarine is a technology demonstrator. Designed in 1989, one has to wonder if this was a cold war project that was better left unfinished. Unless Russia has invented a light switch for turning a nuclear reactor on and off, it is hard to consider this type of hybrid powered submarine some sort of revolutionary design. But after doing a bit more research, it may be a revolutionary design though for AIP, Stratfor detailed back in September:
Sarov was once the secretive closed city Arzamas-16, also known as the Russian Los Alamos for its role in the Soviet nuclear weapons program. Though nuclear submarine construction is well-established at the Sevmash shipyards in Severodvinsk, Sarov could be a site for further research into the use of radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs).
RTGs use the heat of radioactive decay from radioisotopes like plutonium-238 and strontium-90 to generate electricity. They are much simpler than full-fledged naval reactors and have been used to power remote lighthouses and weather stations as well as deep space probes unable to rely on solar energy.
However, there are technological hurdles that must be overcome. RTGs have been used predominantly in situations where wattage was not the limiting factor. Modern RTGs used on NASA probes produce hundreds of watts and are about the size and weight of a 120-pound person. But to use both German and Swedish systems as a benchmark, a magnitude of 200 to 300 kilowatts is necessary for AIP. Though much of this distance can be overcome by designing an RTG specifically for this purpose and then fitting multiple RTGs to the submarine, there is still a technological gap the Russians would have had to overcome.
The point is not how an RTG-based AIP would stack up against the German or Swedish methods; rather, the point is that an RTG is rather uniquely fitted to the Russian knowledge base -- and the Sarov locale.
Though not earth-shattering, a successful AIP uniquely suited to the Russian defense industry is a potentially significant development for the next generation of Russian patrol subs -- both for domestic coastal defense and export abroad.
The specifications of the Project 20120 "super secret submarine" are:
Length: 72.6m
Width: 9.9m
Draught: 7m
Displacement: 2300/3950 tons
Diving depth: 300m
Speed: 10/17 kts
Endurance: 45 days
According to the official press release, the submarine requires a crew of 52, which is actually one more person than the Akula class SSN, so we assume one more enlisted (25 officers, 27 enlisted). While the news report quoted above claims the submarine will be used as a "spy" submarine, we see the submarine being put to use as a training vessel and technology demonstrator.
While Stratfor is speculating, all of the data we are seeing does seem to fit the picture they painted back in September. If indeed Russia has come up with a hybrid RTG-based AIP system that is as effective as European AIP designs, then it would confirm what we have been hearing that Russia's design base for submarines is still very healthy and the innovation is still there. It will be interesting to see what details come out via the media over the next few days.
Posted by Galrahn at 1:55 AM
Não se tem razão quando se diz que o tempo cura tudo: de repente, as velhas dores tornam-se lancinantes e só morrem com o homem.
Ilya Ehrenburg
Uma pena incansável e combatente, contra as hordas imperialistas, sanguinárias e assassinas!
Ilya Ehrenburg
Uma pena incansável e combatente, contra as hordas imperialistas, sanguinárias e assassinas!
- LeandroGCard
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 8754
- Registrado em: Qui Ago 03, 2006 9:50 am
- Localização: S.B. do Campo
- Agradeceu: 69 vezes
- Agradeceram: 812 vezes
Re: B-90
O conceito de submarinos Diesel-elétricos equipados com sistemas nucleares de potência baixa a servirem como AIP não é novo, vinte anos atrás os canadenses já estudavam um projeto assim, antes que o fim da guerra fria levasse ao corte das verbas e a posterior aquisição dos Upholder.
E não necessariamente o gerador nuclear teria que ser um RTG (gerador térmico por radioisótopos em inglês), que apesar de simples de operar e absolutamente silencioso tem baixa capacidade de potência. O projeto do Canadá incluía um reator refrigerado a freon por convecção natural, sem bombas de circulação, que também seria muito silencioso, seguro, e geraria alguns KW de potência. Ele permitiria que o submarino navegasse a uns 4 ou 5 nós submerso silenciosa e indefinidamente, e ainda a recarga lenta das baterias, um desempenho bem melhor que os mais modernos sistemas AIP não nucleares imagináveis. O sistema de motores diesel/baterias seria utilizado para cruzeiros mais velozes até a área de patrulha e na volta para casa.
Não acho difícil que os russos tenham desenvolvido algo neste sentido. Ou mesmo RTG’s maiores utilizados em série ou paralelo. Na verdade este era um desenvolvimento que eu gostaria de ver na MB.
Leandro G. Card
E não necessariamente o gerador nuclear teria que ser um RTG (gerador térmico por radioisótopos em inglês), que apesar de simples de operar e absolutamente silencioso tem baixa capacidade de potência. O projeto do Canadá incluía um reator refrigerado a freon por convecção natural, sem bombas de circulação, que também seria muito silencioso, seguro, e geraria alguns KW de potência. Ele permitiria que o submarino navegasse a uns 4 ou 5 nós submerso silenciosa e indefinidamente, e ainda a recarga lenta das baterias, um desempenho bem melhor que os mais modernos sistemas AIP não nucleares imagináveis. O sistema de motores diesel/baterias seria utilizado para cruzeiros mais velozes até a área de patrulha e na volta para casa.
Não acho difícil que os russos tenham desenvolvido algo neste sentido. Ou mesmo RTG’s maiores utilizados em série ou paralelo. Na verdade este era um desenvolvimento que eu gostaria de ver na MB.
Leandro G. Card
- P44
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 55350
- Registrado em: Ter Dez 07, 2004 6:34 am
- Localização: O raio que vos parta
- Agradeceu: 2771 vezes
- Agradeceram: 2448 vezes
- Ilya Ehrenburg
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 2449
- Registrado em: Ter Set 08, 2009 5:47 pm
- Agradeceram: 1 vez
Re: B-90
Percebem-se muitas mulheres, na foto daquela equipe, por certo, à de desenvolvimento.
O casco, cheio de bulbos, revela que é mesmo um submarino modificado, para testes. Mas, o conceito é muito interessante. Deveria ser seguido, atenciosamente, pela Marinha do Brasil.
O casco, cheio de bulbos, revela que é mesmo um submarino modificado, para testes. Mas, o conceito é muito interessante. Deveria ser seguido, atenciosamente, pela Marinha do Brasil.
Não se tem razão quando se diz que o tempo cura tudo: de repente, as velhas dores tornam-se lancinantes e só morrem com o homem.
Ilya Ehrenburg
Uma pena incansável e combatente, contra as hordas imperialistas, sanguinárias e assassinas!
Ilya Ehrenburg
Uma pena incansável e combatente, contra as hordas imperialistas, sanguinárias e assassinas!
- P44
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 55350
- Registrado em: Ter Dez 07, 2004 6:34 am
- Localização: O raio que vos parta
- Agradeceu: 2771 vezes
- Agradeceram: 2448 vezes
Re: B-90
AlbertoRJ escreveu:Esse gigante é diesel-elétrico?
[]'s
http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,158723,00.htmlRussia Completes Hybrid Submarine
Norman Polmar | December 20, 2007
Russia's Sevmash shipyard at the Arctic city of Severodvinsk has completed a hybrid submarine powered by a diesel-electric plant and a small nuclear reactor. Designated B-90 and named Sarov, the submarine was completed on 17 December.
The submarine is known as Project 20120 in Russian design terminology. She apparently employs the small nuclear reactor -- known to some engineers as a "teakettle" -- to keep a charge on the battery, providing essentially unlimited underwater endurance on relatively quiet electric propulsion. In effect, this is an Air-Indpendent Propulsion (AIP) system.
The "teakettle" concept is not new. The Soviet Navy deployed a Project 651 (NATO Juliett) cruise missile submarine (SSG) in 1986-1991 with a similar diesel-electric/nuclear plant. That craft had a pressurized-water reactor with a single-loop configuration coupled with a turbogenerator. The Soviet report stated that the sea trials "demonstrated the workability of the system, but revealed quite a few deficiencies. Those were later corrected."
However, no follow-on efforts were undertaken at that time. (The Soviets built 16 diesel-electric Juliett SSGs from 1963 to 1968.)
The B-90 was designed by the Rubin design bureau in St. Petersburg. Construction was begun at the Krasnoe Sormovo shipyard in Nizhnii Novgorod (formerly Gor'kiy), and the submarine was then transported through the inland waterways to the Sevmash yard for completion.
There is no available information on the size of the B-90 program. In the past the Soviet Union was an early leader in AIP-type submarines. As early as 1938 the Soviets began development on a "single-drive" submarine that could operate diesel engines while submerged and surfaced. After World War II the Soviets built the Project 617 (Whale), an AIP submarine based on German technology. She was followed by 23 coastal submarines of Project A615 (Quebec), which were torpedo and gun-armed combat craft. Other AIP experiments followed.
Today several navies are operating AIP submarines, with the U.S. Navy having "borrowed" the Swedish AIP submarine Gotland in 2005-2007 to serve as an anti-submarine target for U.S. carrier task forces. The Gotland, according to Swedish officers, could not be located by U.S. naval forces in exercises until the submarine "wanted to be found."
The Soviet B-90 may be a follow-on submarine to the Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines that have been transferred in large numbers to other navies, including China and India. The B-90, especially when operating in coastal or littoral waters, could pose a significant threat to Western maritime interests.
Triste sina ter nascido português
-
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 13539
- Registrado em: Sáb Jun 18, 2005 10:26 pm
- Agradeceu: 56 vezes
- Agradeceram: 201 vezes
Re: B-90
A MB acompanha este e outros desenvolvimentos na área de propulsão naval Ilya. Mas primeiro, vamos ver se os próprios russos vão aprovar este desenvolvimento. Não temos como arriscar com promessas. Se não vale SEA Gripen NG, então nada de B-90 por enquanto. A relação custo-benefício é bem pequena.Ilya Ehrenburg escreveu:Percebem-se muitas mulheres, na foto daquela equipe, por certo, à de desenvolvimento.
O casco, cheio de bulbos, revela que é mesmo um submarino modificado, para testes. Mas, o conceito é muito interessante. Deveria ser seguido, atenciosamente, pela Marinha do Brasil.
Só há 2 tipos de navios: os submarinos e os alvos...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
- P44
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 55350
- Registrado em: Ter Dez 07, 2004 6:34 am
- Localização: O raio que vos parta
- Agradeceu: 2771 vezes
- Agradeceram: 2448 vezes
Re: B-90
http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=8998Subsequent upgrade of Russian secret sub
26.03.2010
Subsequent modernization started at Russian classified diesel electric submarine B-90 Sarov, writes Rossiyskaya Gazeta referring to source at Zvezdochka shipyard (Severodvinsk). It was not specified what kind of upgrade will be provided to the sub commissioned in Aug 2008.
Very little is known about B-90. The only Project 20120 submarine was designed by Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering. The project is classified since Sarov falls into a category of so called test stations used for testing new and modernized weapons and various shipborne systems.
Probably, the veil of confidentiality around B-90 might be related to intentions of use the sub for testing of latest nuclear reactor. Since commission into the Navy, the submarine has taken part in several tests; each time prior to a trial she faced engineering changes. It is not improbable that current modernization is somehow connected with coming tests.
The only thing is known that Sarov is powered with Kristall-27 powerplant with electrochemical generator; the plant makes possible to increase endurance up to 90 days. The hull of B-90 was taken from experimental submarine of Project Sargan laid down in 80's. The hull of Sargan was delivered to Sevmash shipyard in 2003.
Source: Lenta.Ru, photo: diesel electric B-90 Sarov (military.tomsk.ru)
Triste sina ter nascido português
-
- Sênior
- Mensagens: 13539
- Registrado em: Sáb Jun 18, 2005 10:26 pm
- Agradeceu: 56 vezes
- Agradeceram: 201 vezes
Re: B-90
Um sistema de propulsão AIP é batata. Uma nova suíte-sonar é mais do que provável.P44 escreveu:
http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=8998Subsequent upgrade of Russian secret sub
26.03.2010
Subsequent modernization started at Russian classified diesel electric submarine B-90 Sarov, writes Rossiyskaya Gazeta referring to source at Zvezdochka shipyard (Severodvinsk). It was not specified what kind of upgrade will be provided to the sub commissioned in Aug 2008.
Very little is known about B-90. The only Project 20120 submarine was designed by Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering. The project is classified since Sarov falls into a category of so called test stations used for testing new and modernized weapons and various shipborne systems.
Probably, the veil of confidentiality around B-90 might be related to intentions of use the sub for testing of latest nuclear reactor. Since commission into the Navy, the submarine has taken part in several tests; each time prior to a trial she faced engineering changes. It is not improbable that current modernization is somehow connected with coming tests.
The only thing is known that Sarov is powered with Kristall-27 powerplant with electrochemical generator; the plant makes possible to increase endurance up to 90 days. The hull of B-90 was taken from experimental submarine of Project Sargan laid down in 80's. The hull of Sargan was delivered to Sevmash shipyard in 2003.
Source: Lenta.Ru, photo: diesel electric B-90 Sarov (military.tomsk.ru)
Só há 2 tipos de navios: os submarinos e os alvos...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...
Armam-se homens com as melhores armas.
Armam-se Submarinos com os melhores homens.
Os sábios PENSAM
Os Inteligentes COPIAM
Os Idiotas PLANTAM e os
Os Imbecis FINANCIAM...