Eurofighter

[Strider]

Se a FAB encomendasse hoje 12 Typhoons, por quanto sairia o lote

Nada barato... O "Unit Cost Production" do Tiffie T2 (Block5 a block10)anda pelos 40 milhões de libras esterlinas (ligeiramente mais, até), junta a isso 7% que está contratualizado entre a EUROFIGHTER GMBH e os quatro governos do consórcio, que estes recebem no caso de venda ao exterior, mais uma margem de lucro para a empresa e já estamos a falar de nºs "Australianos" (vide a compra do "Super bug" pelos "Cangurús"), junte-se a isto, o treino, mais um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos como a Austria assinou, e estamos a falar de uma quantidade ENORME de dinheiro...
Mexendo um bocado na Maionese, qualquer coisa como 1,2 biliões de dólares para a compra directa dos aviões, junte-se a isto um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos e é mais 50% em cima, estamos nos 1,8 biliões de dólares.
Note-se que estou a ser conservador, no concurso Romeno para 48 caças que está a decorrer agora, os valores apresentados pela EUROFIGHTER GMBH são bastante inferiores aos nºs acima, isto segundo a imprensa Romena. Na ultima proposta efectuada à Turquia os nºs apresentados foram quase 1/3 inferiores ao que apontei acima.

Es disser......

no mínimo o 12 EFA custa o mesmo que:

16 Rafale
24 Su-35BM
48 MiG-35

Se você oferecer US$ 1.8 bilhões em 48 MiG-35+armas os russos vão rir da sua cara

[Luís Henrique]

Se a FAB encomendasse hoje 12 Typhoons, por quanto sairia o lote

Nada barato... O "Unit Cost Production" do Tiffie T2 (Block5 a block10)anda pelos 40 milhões de libras esterlinas (ligeiramente mais, até), junta a isso 7% que está contratualizado entre a EUROFIGHTER GMBH e os quatro governos do consórcio, que estes recebem no caso de venda ao exterior, mais uma margem de lucro para a empresa e já estamos a falar de nºs "Australianos" (vide a compra do "Super bug" pelos "Cangurús"), junte-se a isto, o treino, mais um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos como a Austria assinou, e estamos a falar de uma quantidade ENORME de dinheiro...
Mexendo um bocado na Maionese, qualquer coisa como 1,2 biliões de dólares para a compra directa dos aviões, junte-se a isto um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos e é mais 50% em cima, estamos nos 1,8 biliões de dólares.
Note-se que estou a ser conservador, no concurso Romeno para 48 caças que está a decorrer agora, os valores apresentados pela EUROFIGHTER GMBH são bastante inferiores aos nºs acima, isto segundo a imprensa Romena. Na ultima proposta efectuada à Turquia os nºs apresentados foram quase 1/3 inferiores ao que apontei acima.

Es disser......

no mínimo o 12 EFA custa o mesmo que:

16 Rafale
24 Su-35BM
48 MiG-35

Se você oferecer US$ 1.8 bilhões em 48 MiG-35+armas os russos vão rir da sua cara

Quem falou em armas?

Estou avaliando, BEEEEM por cima, aeronaves PELADAS....

[Strider]

Se a FAB encomendasse hoje 12 Typhoons, por quanto sairia o lote

Nada barato... O "Unit Cost Production" do Tiffie T2 (Block5 a block10)anda pelos 40 milhões de libras esterlinas (ligeiramente mais, até), junta a isso 7% que está contratualizado entre a EUROFIGHTER GMBH e os quatro governos do consórcio, que estes recebem no caso de venda ao exterior, mais uma margem de lucro para a empresa e já estamos a falar de nºs "Australianos" (vide a compra do "Super bug" pelos "Cangurús"), junte-se a isto, o treino, mais um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos como a Austria assinou, e estamos a falar de uma quantidade ENORME de dinheiro...
Mexendo um bocado na Maionese, qualquer coisa como 1,2 biliões de dólares para a compra directa dos aviões, junte-se a isto um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos e é mais 50% em cima, estamos nos 1,8 biliões de dólares.
Note-se que estou a ser conservador, no concurso Romeno para 48 caças que está a decorrer agora, os valores apresentados pela EUROFIGHTER GMBH são bastante inferiores aos nºs acima, isto segundo a imprensa Romena. Na ultima proposta efectuada à Turquia os nºs apresentados foram quase 1/3 inferiores ao que apontei acima.

Es disser......

no mínimo o 12 EFA custa o mesmo que:

16 Rafale
24 Su-35BM
48 MiG-35

Se você oferecer US$ 1.8 bilhões em 48 MiG-35+armas os russos vão rir da sua cara

Quem falou em armas?

Estou avaliando, BEEEEM por cima, aeronaves PELADAS....

Aeronaves MiG-35 peladas são tão inofencivas quanto um Cessna 208 Caravan com uma carga de porcos capados

[Morcego]

Se a FAB encomendasse hoje 12 Typhoons, por quanto sairia o lote

Nada barato... O "Unit Cost Production" do Tiffie T2 (Block5 a block10)anda pelos 40 milhões de libras esterlinas (ligeiramente mais, até), junta a isso 7% que está contratualizado entre a EUROFIGHTER GMBH e os quatro governos do consórcio, que estes recebem no caso de venda ao exterior, mais uma margem de lucro para a empresa e já estamos a falar de nºs "Australianos" (vide a compra do "Super bug" pelos "Cangurús"), junte-se a isto, o treino, mais um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos como a Austria assinou, e estamos a falar de uma quantidade ENORME de dinheiro...
Mexendo um bocado na Maionese, qualquer coisa como 1,2 biliões de dólares para a compra directa dos aviões, junte-se a isto um contrato de apoio logistico a 25 anos e é mais 50% em cima, estamos nos 1,8 biliões de dólares.
Note-se que estou a ser conservador, no concurso Romeno para 48 caças que está a decorrer agora, os valores apresentados pela EUROFIGHTER GMBH são bastante inferiores aos nºs acima, isto segundo a imprensa Romena. Na ultima proposta efectuada à Turquia os nºs apresentados foram quase 1/3 inferiores ao que apontei acima.

Es disser......

no mínimo o 12 EFA custa o mesmo que:

16 Rafale
24 Su-35BM
48 MiG-35

Se você oferecer US$ 1.8 bilhões em 48 MiG-35+armas os russos vão rir da sua cara

Quem falou em armas?

Estou avaliando, BEEEEM por cima, aeronaves PELADAS....

Aeronaves MiG-35 peladas são tão inofencivas quanto um Cessna 208 Caravan com uma carga de porcos capados

não se estiverem sendo pilotados por KAMIKASES.

[old]

A punto de finalizar la 1Tranche



A partir de ahi comenzaran las entregas a Arabia y Austria y es posible que Alemania y España adquieran aviones opcionales a corto/medio plazo para sustituir a Tornados y F18s

[AlbertoRJ]

O radar CAESAR AESA já está sendo testando no Eurofighter:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/CAESAR_Completes_Flight_Trials_on_Eurofighter100011823.php

[]'s

[A-29]

Essa Noruega efetivamente não gosta de deixar todos os ovos na mesma cesta. Continua mantendo vivas as conversações tanto para Eurofighter como para Gripen e F-35.

Eurofighter Signs New Cooperation Agreement with Norway


(Source: Eurofighter GmbH; issued May 15, 2007)



OSLO/HALLBERGMOOS, Germany --- The Eurofighter partnership consolidates the close ties to Norway by signature of a further agreement on technological cooperation between the Eurofighter consortium of Alenia Aeronautica (Italy), BAE Systems (United Kingdom), EADS CASA (Spain), EADS Germany and Norway.

Eurofighter CEO Aloysius Rauen signed the Letter of Agreement with the Norwegian Ministry of Defence (NMOD) in the presence of the German Ambassador to Norway Roland Mauch, who represented the four Eurofighter Nations, and the Norwegian Defence Minister, Anne-Grete Strøm-Erichsen.

This Letter of Agreement with the NMOD sets out the principles to be applied to industrial contracts and includes the funding commitment from the NMOD to cover the development contracts between Norwegian and Eurofighter Partner Companies.

Aloysius Rauen commented at the signing ceremony, "This new Agreement is a further important element in meeting the demands of Norway's competition for a new combat aircraft. It will allow the Eurofighter Partnership to continue to develop and demonstrate its ability to deliver high technology in partnership with Norwegian industry. This new agreement will also provide vital continuity to Norwegian industry in preparation for the potential NOK 40 Billion (approx. EUR 4.9 billion) which would accrue as part of the industrial package associated with a Norwegian choice of Eurofighter as its F-16 replacement. This industrial work would form a substantial part of the Eurofighter package for Norway, combining Eurofighter Typhoon's unmatched operational capability with a comprehensive training and through life support package to provide an unbeatable solution to meet Norway's long-term strategic military and industrial requirements."

The Agreement, worth potentially EUR 75M over the next 4 years, marks the continuation of the successful partnership with Norwegian industry which started in 2003 with a previous Industrial Participation Agreement which in itself was worth EUR 35.7M. This previous agreement covered ten Eurofighter development projects with six Norwegian companies including work on target imagining, advanced radar technology, noise suppression, 3D Archiving and other advanced high technology projects.

The new Agreement signed today will provide Norwegian industry with full access to high technology programmes within the Eurofighter Partner Companies, which will ensure that Norwegian industry will be in the best position to maximise the work associated with the forthcoming procurement decision.

The industrial agreement, together with the existing Letter of Understanding (LoU) between the Governments of Norway and the 4 Eurofighter Nations, demonstrates the strength of commitment from the Eurofighter Partner Nations to meet Norway's F-16 replacement requirement.

[Matheus]

Alguém tem dados deste radar Caesar? quando o Typhoon deve estar completamente desenvolvido e o radar acima totalmente operacional? Como está a integração de armamentos ar-solo? a que preço ele está sendo oferecido na mais recente concorência?

Obrigado.

(to que nem o FABIO, cheio de perguntas )

[Sintra]

Alguém tem dados deste radar Caesar? quando o Typhoon deve estar completamente desenvolvido e o radar acima totalmente operacional? Como está a integração de armamentos ar-solo? a que preço ele está sendo oferecido na mais recente concorência?

Obrigado.

(to que nem o FABIO, cheio de perguntas )

1- Não, ninguém tem nºs para este radar, excepto provavelmente os técnicos que trabalham com ele. Só conheço três nºs, a antena do primeiro protótipo que foi instalada num BAC 1-11 só estava equipada a dois terços com MMIC´s, cerca de um milhar, o total de MMIC´s deve rondar algo entre os 1500 e 1600 e no primeiro vôo o protótipo do radar detectou outros aviões a mais de 130 km´s de distância (que aviões, não faço a minima ideia). Ou seja, na prática não sabemos praticamente nada.

2- O Typhon vai estar completamente desenvolvido quando o ultimo avião sair da linha de produção, existe um processo de aperfeiçoamento e melhoria continua. Se a pergunta for "quando é que todas as capacidades ar-ar e ar-terra planeadas e pagas pelas 4 nações do consórcio estarão operacionais"?
A resposta vai ser, se exceptuarmos o missil MBDA "Meteor", as capacidades "ar-ar" completas foram entregues a partir da entrada ao serviço dos primeiros Block5 no mês passado, aqui ao lado em Espanha, estes aviões já levam o IRST "Pirate" a funcionar, o CAPTOR-M está completamente desenvolvido e maduro, os misseis Slammer C5/7, Iris-T e aim 132 encontram-se integradas, o MIDS-LVT (link16) e o DASS também. Em "ar-terra", os primeiros aparelhos realmente funcionais vão aparecer dentro de um ano com uma range de armamentos ar-solo já bastante razoável e com a integração do Litening III efectuada. Estamos a falar disto:

The Phase 1 Enhancement will include the integration of new weapons like Paveway IV and the EGBU-16 (Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit) alongside integrating a Laser Designator Pod (LDP) into Tranche 2 aircraft of all four partner nations. The Human Machine Interface will receive performance upgrades required for the simultaneous Swing Role operation, allowing a pilot to continue a bomb run while at the same time fight air attacks by minimizing the pilot's workload in complex air warfare scenarios. Further extension of the MIDS performance (Multifunctional Information and Distribution System) is a substantial contribution to this objective.

The final Tranche 1 capability already covers air-to-ground operations with Paveway II and GBU-10/16 Laser Guided Bombs (LGB) plus conventional bombs and the gun. The Royal Air Force will receive Tranche 1 aircraft with an integrated LDP already next year.

A integração toal de armas como o TAURUS/Storm Shadow, Brimstone, ALARM, vai estar terminada lá para 2011.
o Radar CAESAR vai estar completamente integrado e finalizado quando alguém o encomendar... Até agora ninguém o encomendou, alguns oficiais da RAF afirmam inclusivamente que estão a ter enormes dificuldades em convencer o MOD porque o CAPTOR-M é tremendamente capaz. Se alguém o encomendar agora, receberá os primeiros aviões equipados com a antena em 2010, com o radar completamente desenvolvido lá para 2012 (se tudo correr bem). A minha opinião é que os Países do consórcio só vão encomendar para a tranche3, essa decisão vai ser tomada lá para o ano de 2009, as primeiras antenas vão ser entregues lá para 2012/13, com o radar completamente funcional lá para 2015. Caso exitam encomendas exteriores que contemplem o CAESAR as datas voltam a 2010/11 primeiras entregas, radar completamente funcional em 2012/13.

3 - Esses valores não são públicos, mas coloquei uma estimativa num post acima, o "unit cost production" dos Tranche2 estão nos 40 milhões de libras, cerca de 80 milhões de dólares, a EUROFIGHTER GMBH tem um acordo com os 4 países do consórcio em que tem de pagar uma "fee" de 7% por cada avião exportado, soma isto, mais alguma coisa de lucro para o construtor e chegas a um valor muito próximo de um caça "chave na mão".

[Matheus]

Obrigado pela atenção amigo, muito esclarecedor seu post.

[Sintra]

Obrigado pela atenção amigo, muito esclarecedor seu post.

De nada, sempre às ordens.

[A-29]

Justamente por esse extenso plano de incremento de capacidades acordado entre vários países que considero o Eurofighter como um caça superior ao Rafale.

Sua superioridade não está nas capacidades, mas sim no negócio.

[Penguin]

Justamente por esse extenso plano de incremento de capacidades acordado entre vários países que considero o Eurofighter como um caça superior ao Rafale.

Sua superioridade não está nas capacidades, mas sim no negócio.

De acordo com a materia de Jon Lake na Air International, de um modo geral o Typhoon é superior na arena ar-ar e o Rafale na arena ar-terra.

De outro Fórum (http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/fo ... a&start=80), sobre as vantagens do Typhoon sobre o Rafale, pelo próprio Jon Lake:

Numerical advantages plucked from Jane's are all well and good, and are the meat and potatoes on which gamers rely.

The figures, however, are sometimes less than accurate, and often less than significant.

1. MMI advantage (OBS.: Man-Machine Interface) :
How much difference in effectiveness and efficiency between the two MMI systems is ??? Had the pilot that made such conclusion flown both EF-2000 and Rafale before????

I'm starting to forget what was printed in Air Int and what was in the section that they didn't have room for. What I can say is that while I quoted one pilot by name, I have been following both programmes since before the Rafale A and EAP flew, and have interviewed dozens of pilots over the years, including a handful of pilots who have flown both aircraft types. As you might imagine, air force pilots are often VERY wary about talking to a journalist except in the most general terms, and it takes a great deal of trust-building to get into controversial or politically sensitive areas (or any areas at all with Israelis, Singaporeans, Taiwanese, etc!) and very few air force pilots will be willing to be quoted by name at all. Typhoon's MMI ALWAYS comes in for universal praise, and pilots rate Typhoon's performance and MMI as its key advantages. Nor is MMI a purely subjective issue - there are some useful subjective assessment scales, including the Bedford, Modified Cooper Harper and NASA TLX Scales. Moreover, some aspects of MMI can be objectively measured, from monitoring head down, eye focusing numbers and the time to complete switch operations. The ease of use of the MMI can also be judged by the amount of simulator time and cockpit time required during conversion training courses.

2. Radar advantage:
How much detection/tracking range difference between CAPTOR and RBE-2 is ??? Besides range advantage, does CAPTOR have any other kind of advantage(s) (with solid and numerical data to prove it / them) over RBE-2????

Radar parametrics are naturally highly classified, and any figures must be taken with a pinch of salt, because they inevitably have been blurred, under-stated or exaggerated.

One key advantage is that the Captor scans a 70° sector of sky while RBE2 scans 60°. A 10% bigger 'slice' gives wider turnaway, making the opponent's missile shot far less effective than your own. Moreover, range performance at the azimuth limit is 100% with a mechanical array - whereas it is dramatically reduced with an AESA or PESA array - because as soon as you are phase shifting to steer the beam you are also reducing output power.

But the main advantage is of course with range - where the most generous interpretation would give RBE2 about 60% of Captor's capability.

3. Flight performance and supersonic agility:
(Once again) How much difference in flight performance and supersonic agility between the two fighter is??? Had the pilot(s) that made such conclusion flown both EF-2000 and Rafale before???

The difference is very significant. Supersonic acceleration and climb rates are much higher. Typhoon supercruises with an operational load, and has demonstrated its capability whenever required. Its primary A-A armament is extremely low drag. Typhoon can sustain 4 g at Mach 1.6 at 36,000 ft. These were exactly the conclusions reached by the Singaporeans - who flew both types.

Has EF-2000 really gotten the advantage in exchange ratio rate over Rafale during the DACT exercises in the past few years????

Neither type has done much real world DACT, so far. (And most of what has been done has been WVR). JOUST (which was far more rigorous, realistic and independent than I had once believed) and SILVE and Gambit all painted the same picture about exchange rates.

Adiante ele posta:

2) I’d say that some of the test pilots I’ve interviewed have been more than merely subjective about MMI – they are trained to be, after all. Incidentally – MMI is not about how a cockpit “looks”.

3) Typhoon’s cockpit layout is more common? You’re making the usual non-pilot’s mistake of looking at the layout of a dead cockpit – when what is important are display modings, display formats, etc.

4) I have seen subjective scores for Rafale and for Typhoon. To publish them might reveal my source, whuch is why I didn’t use them in the article. They are part of the reason that I’m quite so confident that I’m telling the truth on this issue.

5) Sim and training time is a useful indicator. No more, no less.

6) The angular coverage is greater. Beam agility is less. Lock stability would be pretty hard to beat.

7) Agility at BVR missile launch is CRUCIAL, and range performance of your radar at the Gimbal is vitally important. If you can rapidly turn 70° away from the target (and he can only go to 60°) and if you still have 100% of radar range performance while he has 50%, and while his radar is already 60% shorter ranged than yours, you have a very significant advantage.

8) The most generous credible range figure for RBE2 is about 60% of what we know Captor is achieving. Some would say that RBE2 struggles to get 50% of the range performance.

That’s why AESA is vital for Rafale and still viewed as merely ‘nice to have’ by EF GmbH, with no funded requirement or formal aspiration from any customer.

[P44]

The first Austrian Eurofighter seen during its roll-out in March. Initial deliveries to Austria are imminent. (Eurofighter photo)

Eurofighter for Austria: Industry and Government Reach Agreement

(Source: Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH; issued June 26, 2007)

HALLBERGMOOS, Germany/VIENNA, Austria --- The Eurofighter consortium has reached agreement with the Government of Austria on cost reductions of the Eurofighter procurement. The consortium thus reacts towards the political development in Austria to secure the programme in the long term and at a very advanced stage.

The agreement covers:

- delivery of 15 aircraft with latest capability standard of Tranche 1;
- equipment standard strictly meeting the requirement for air surveillance;
- a price reduction on the negotiated In-service Support Contract that has not been signed yet.

Adapting the contractual contents leads to a EUR 370 million reduction of total contract value.

Aloysius Rauen, Chief Executive Officer of Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH, comments:

"The Eurofighter consortium of Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, EADS CASA and EADS Deutschland has always pointed out that an agreement meeting both sides' interests can be achieved, if the partners don't insist on contrasting positions, but try to find a solution meeting the objectives of both parties. In this spirit the achieved results represent a classic mutual agreement, supported by both sides.

“With introducing the Eurofighter Typhoon the Republic of Austria will operate the World's most advanced fighter aircraft to secure and defend their national air space. Austria now belongs firmly to the Eurofighter community of five nations, benefiting from the advantages the programme delivers in operation and support."

The contents of the agreement will be integrated into the procurement contract; earlier versions will be invalid. (ends)


(EDITOR’S NOTE: The original contract, signed in 2003, covered 18 aircraft and was valued at about 2 billion euros. The Social Democratic government which took office in late 2006 wanted to cancel it outright, but on June 25 an independent legal expert appointed by the government said this would expose Austria to punishingly high costs.
The compromise detailed above is to be submitted to the Cabinet today, June 27, defense ministry spokesman Stefan Hirsch told Reuters. Total savings, including the in-service support contract, are expected to increase to about 400 million euros.)

-ends-

[Penguin]

RAF Eurofighter Typhoons and IAF Su-30 MKIs First-Ever Aerial Combat
Indian Ministry of Defence | Jul 10, 2007

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish ... 012600.php

Much was at stake of its reputation, when for the first-time-ever, the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon, developed by a consortium of European manufacturers and recently inducted into the RAF, was to engage in any kind of an aerial combat with any non-RAF/NATO fighter.

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 MKI air superiority fighters, which are at Waddington, UK for the bilateral air 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007', had an opponent for the befitting duel.

The operational part of the 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007' began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties. Both variants landed with their much-touted reputations intact as each side tested their potentials with their adversary in the air to their limits. These sorties were premised not entirely on having winners or losers – but more for their evaluator and training values as encapsulated in the objectives. Both sides ended-up sharing an enhanced respect for each other's capabilities – both in terms of training values, and combat potentials of the diverse aerial platforms.

While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron. The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manouevring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon's agility in the air.

While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today's aerial combat scenarios of 'beyond visual range' (BVR) capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a 'kill' criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1,000 metres and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using 'chaff' and other active/passive measures, a 'gun kill' is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.

The exercise that nearly runs into midway by the weekend constitutes mostly mixed missions where RAF F3 Tornados, Hawks and Typhoons are packed together with IAF Su-30 MKIs. The sorties include combat situations of 2 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and upward combinations. The raiders are tasked 'High Value Asset' (HVA) busting on the ground and 'High Value Airborne Asset' (HVAA) busting in the air with the defensive elements designated to counter their ambitions.