Modernización fragata Willims de la MCh.

[talharim]

É que a informação que tenho é que em exercícios o Seawolf vem tendo taxas extraordinárias de acerto em compensação os Aspide vem tendo desempenho sofrível.

Por quê os Aspide tem tido desempenho abaixo da média não sei.A MB estaria tendo algum problema de integração ou eles são simplesmente uma merda mesmo ?

[Tu160bomber]

Parece um capacete nazista

[Slip Junior]

É que a informação que tenho é que em exercícios o Seawolf vem tendo taxas extraordinárias de acerto em compensação os Aspide vem tendo desempenho sofrível.

O que eu já ouvi falar da reputação do Seawolf na MB é exatamente o contrário...

Abraços

[P44]

google é amigo...

Sea Wolf VLS : range 6km, Mach 2.5, warhead 14kg
Sea Wolf GWS 25 Mod 3 : range 5km, Mach 2, warhead 14kg
Aspide : range 13km, Mach 2.5, warhead 30kg
Crotale : range 13km, Mach 2.4, warhead 14kg

=> Aspide already had more than twice the range, same speed, a warhead twice as big as Sea Wolf (it helps in case of near miss). Accuracy against high subsonic speed manoeuvring targets bypassed 4 out of 5 shots fired in late '90s tests in Sardegna.

Aspide

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are all of the data I could get my hands on. What is in bold font is the most interesting in order to answer some of your questions. Btw, since the system can operate from an octuple launcher it is non intrusive into the ship's superstructure. Just to be clear, I'm not proposing this for the Duke refit, I'm just providing the data regarding the discussion Aspide vs Sea Wolf in the '90s, before Asters and Mica were available.

Model: Aspide. IOC: 1980. Country: Italy.
Ordered by 17 countries.
Total Mass: 220 kg (480 lb). Core Diameter: 0.20 m (0.65 ft). Total Length: 3.72 m (12.20 ft). Span: 0.99 m (3.24 ft). Standard warhead mass: 35 kg (77 lb). Maximum range: 90 km (55 mi) air-to-air / 13km surface-to-air. Boost Propulsion: Solid rocket. Guidance: Semi-Active Radar Homing. Maximum speed: 4,520 kph (2,800 mph). Minimum range: 1.30 km (0.80 mi). Ceiling: 5,000 m (16,400 ft). Floor: 15 m (49 ft). Though question is : does this data refer only to the air-to-air version once used on the F104S/ASA/M ?? Let's also not forget that Aspide-equipped ships rely on 76/62SR or 40/70 CIWS guns for the closest ranges.


Model: Aspide 2000. Surface-to-Air missile. Country: Italy.
Surface-to-air version. In production.
Total Mass: 241 kg (531 lb). Core Diameter: 0.20 m (0.67 ft). Total Length: 3.69 m (12.10 ft). Span: 0.68 m (2.24 ft). Maximum range: 20 km (12 mi). Boost Propulsion: Solid rocket. Guidance: Semi-Active Radar Homing.


Brazilian Navy Albatros-Aspide Air Defence System Trials Success
(Source: MBDA; issued Apr. 15, 2004)
A test firing of MBDA’s Albatros-Aspide naval air-defense system was successfully carried out from the Brazilian Navy ship Defensora, a Niteroi class frigate.
During the firing, which took place approximately 60 nautical miles off the Brazilian coast, a Banshee drone, simulating an aircraft in low altitude attack mode, was intercepted and brought down following a direct hit by the weapon system’s Aspide missile.
MBDA is design authority for the Albatros-Aspide naval air defense system which forms a key component of the Brazilian Navy’s program to upgrade the combat system of its six Niteroi class frigates. Under the program, which began in the late 1990’s, two frigates have been upgraded and the Brazilian Navy proposed that a demonstration firing of the Albatros-Aspide system be carried out.
MBDA undertook all aspects of the trial including integration with the FCS (Fire Control System). MBDA is partnered with AMS-DSN, responsible for the supply of the complete combat system under the modernization program.
The Albatros surface-to-air missile system adds to a ship’s gun FCS (Fire Control System) the capability to launch an Aspide missile by integrating it to a set of easy-to-install missile units. This combination provides an integrated, all weather naval air defense system comprising an outer layer based on missiles and an inner layer based on the ship’s gun battery.
During the firing the ship’s FCS (NA30), supported by its RAN20S ship-air surveillance radar, acquired the target. The target was then tracked by the ship’s RTN30X tracking radar. The Albatros system, together with the NA30 system, then engaged and destroyed the Banshee radio-controlled drone.
Admiral Euclides Duncan Janot de Matos, Director General of Brazilian naval procurement (Diretoria General do Material da Marinha do Brasil) expressed his complete satisfaction with the results of the firing.
Sandro Pazzini, Managing Director for MBDA Italy, said: “This firing demonstrates once again the reliability of the Albatros-Aspide missile system, which is already in service with a number of navies around the world. MBDA’s team worked around the clock with the Brazilian Navy to ensure all aspects of the trial including integration with the FCS, missile launch and full firing data analysis successfully met all the navy’s requirements.”
Some 70 ships in service with 13 navies worldwide are currently armed with Albatros systems and Aspide missiles. Within Albatros-Aspide’s engagement envelope the system provides for an SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability) greater than 0.8 with a single missile and 0.96 with two missiles.

I think your comparison between Apside and Sea Wolf contains some pretty simplistic points. A weapons system on a warship depends on sensors, ESM, ECM,ECCM, Processing power, good crew training and a multitude of other factors not just a tick box against the range and speed of the missile itself. Any adversary will always target the weaknesses, the RN learnt that the hard way during the falklands.

If the enemy is stupid enough to fly at you frigate at 2000 ft, then yes, on paper Apside will shoot it down before Sea Wolf. (Though He may have received a Sea Dart in the face long before). However if the opponent is an exocet type missile at wave top height, neither ship will have much chance of engaging it at more than 5 miles. Add clutter from waves then this could become less so any range advantage is pretty much negated. It then becomes a matter of tracking, locking and killing the missile. I dont know enough about either missiles capabiliies to make a "one is better than the other" judgement but I know the RN has been happy with SW over the last two plus decades. Maybe the experts could advise on which missile has the best chance of hitting an incoming sea skimmer?

A type 22 had 12 ready missiles, a T23 has 32. The are pretty easy for a couple of crew to reload on the Type 22. Forgive my lack of knowlege of the Italian ships, but what is the load carried/re-load time on your vessels? Also ours have two directors, we had TV as well as radar, the Type 22's launchers and directors have a good arc of coverage. The Italian ships?

In a multiple sea skimmer attack I think SW is as good as system as any out there. Apside clearly gives good coverage in terms of range and probably therefore makes a better general purpose ship. Again, please give the info on the overall sensor weapons mix on the Italian ships.

It is the capacity to deal with multiple threats that count. The Argentinians took out HMS Coventry with an eight-ship of Skyhawks coming in from different dircetions at zero altitude, utilising the radars deficiency against background land masses to reduce detection time. It is here that I think you have misrepresented the success of SW. HMS Broadsword was part of the trap and had two Skyhawks locked up and would likely have shot them down had the Coventry not turned into the line of its sensors. This was not a failure of the sensors but a circumstance of war. Would other missile systems have worked better, particularly as the computers of the day were far less powerful than today. SW was a new system, ating from the 60's but deployed from the late 70's. Only two ships had it in the Falklands, Brilliant and Broadsword, Brilliant engaged four Skyhawks, killing two and the third crashed avoiding one, Wiki says it had two kills and three possibles from only 8 fired, so not a bad record fo a new weapon, used in combat not a simulated demonstration. In fact, if success is judged on kills the the Sea Dart did pretty well, an even more ancient missile, getting seven kills.Has any other curret western missile killed more aircraft? No, but would anyone want it now? Course not but it still has to be judged a success. I see that your stats on the Apside 2000 refer to a 2004 test, some 28 years after SW was first deployed. I doubt though if it will ever see combat as intensive as SW did in '82.

SW will do the job until the RN needs a replacement.It does what it was designed to do, give point defence against missiles. I dont think Aster would fit in the tubes of the T23's or does anyone know differently? If the VLS needed replacing I would rather spend the cash on more T45's or Carriers.

Apside is obviously very good for the Italian navy and for the fight it faced or faces ie the Sunny Med where the sky is often blue and sea calm. The RN was going to fight in the freezing north atlantic, huge waves, wet decks and often ice forming on the antennas. The batch one 42's in the Falklands suffered from the missile doors jamming with salt. Do you think that got mentioned in any sales brochures or test programme? That is the kind of fact that stat by stat comparisons dont consider. Again, how would apside, its launchers and directors perform in the worst the north atlantic can offer? Have you any info on testing in extreme climates? (though I would imagine the brazilian navy has taken it antartic bound?)

de forum
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showt ... 679&page=4

[Degan]

Errado Talharim, em lugar algum voce vai encontrar referencias disso! São misseis concorrentes, inclusive o Aspide tendo mais exito de vendas fora de seu pais de origem.

Como misil de punto….confío más en un misil SACLOS que en uno semiactivo…

Parece um capacete nazista

Y eso que es italiano…

O que eu já ouvi falar da reputação do Seawolf na MB é exatamente o contrário...

Extraño…considerando que el blanco estándar de entrenamiento del Sea Wolf es una munición especial de 114mm para los Mk8…

P44...algunos antecedentes más:

1) El Sea Wolf es responsable de la destrucción en Malvinas de 3 A-4B (más uno que se estrella tratando de esquivar un Sea Wolf) más un Dagger A.
2) Tiene 5 usuarios: UK, Brasil, Chile, Brunei y Malasia.
3) El alcance del Sea Wolf estándar es de 5km y el del VL es de 10km…siempre se producen errores por la conversión de pies a metros.
4) Existen 4 tipos sucesivos de actualización: GWS-25 Mod1, Mod 3, Mod 4 y Block 2
5) El Aspide se ha vendido a 13 países
6) Tiene un alcance de 12km
7) NUNCA ha entrado en acción.

Saludos,

[Luiz Padilha]

E a MB adora o Seawolf. Apesar da opção do Aspide para as Niterói, o Seawolf é considerado como hiper confiável.
Correu um boato de um teste com a Niterói e que o Aspide não foi bem sucedido. Pode ser boato, pois em fóruns se ouve muitos deles.
A Independencia continua sendo a melhor das Niterói`s.

[Bolovo]

E a MB adora o Seawolf. Apesar da opção do Aspide para as Niterói, o Seawolf é considerado como hiper confiável.
Correu um boato de um teste com a Niterói e que o Aspide não foi bem sucedido. Pode ser boato, pois em fóruns se ouve muitos deles.
A Independencia continua sendo a melhor das Niterói`s.

É que tem um exercício da MB onde uma Niterói disparou um Aspide contra um drone e errou. Uma T22 atirou um SeaWolf contra o mesmo drone e acertou em cheio. Não lembro o nome das fragatas, nem qual exercício era, mas lembro do fato.

[henriquejr]

Errado Talharim, em lugar algum voce vai encontrar referencias disso! São misseis concorrentes, inclusive o Aspide tendo mais exito de vendas fora de seu pais de origem.

Como misil de punto….confío más en un misil SACLOS que en uno semiactivo…

Parece um capacete nazista

Y eso que es italiano…

O que eu já ouvi falar da reputação do Seawolf na MB é exatamente o contrário...

Extraño…considerando que el blanco estándar de entrenamiento del Sea Wolf es una munición especial de 114mm para los Mk8…

P44...algunos antecedentes más:

1) El Sea Wolf es responsable de la destrucción en Malvinas de 3 A-4B (más uno que se estrella tratando de esquivar un Sea Wolf) más un Dagger A.
2) Tiene 5 usuarios: UK, Brasil, Chile, Brunei y Malasia.
3) El alcance del Sea Wolf estándar es de 5km y el del VL es de 10km…siempre se producen errores por la conversión de pies a metros.
4) Existen 4 tipos sucesivos de actualización: GWS-25 Mod1, Mod 3, Mod 4 y Block 2
5) El Aspide se ha vendido a 13 países
6) Tiene un alcance de 12km
7) NUNCA ha entrado en acción.

Saludos,

Creio que estás errado Degan, o Brasil usa o ASPIDE2000 com alcance de 24km confome mostra o comparativo abaixo.

Comprimento
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
3,7 m / 3,7 m


Diâmetro
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
203mm / 203mm (corpo), 234mm (motor)

Envergadura
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
68cm / 68cm

Peso
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
220kg / 241kg

Velocidade
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
Mach 2 / Mach 2,5+

Alcance máximo
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
15km / 24km

Altitude máxima
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
6km / 8km

Altitude mínima
Aspide Mk1 / Aspide 2000
10m / 10m

Até 2005, os testes com o Aspide e Aspide 2000 conseguiram uma taxa de acerto de 92% com 40 disparos em todo mundo a partir de lançadores Spada, Skyguard e Albatros.
Fonte: http://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/aam/aspide.html (antes que ALGUEM peça)

[Luiz Padilha]

Até hoje não li que o nosso Aspide fosse o 2000.
Alguém tem essa informação?
A fonte acima fala dele mas não especifica que tipo compramos, apesar de que a data de 93 se iniciou a construção do Mk3, mas sempre que procuro as especs só vejo ASPIDE e nada mais.

[talharim]

Acontece que a informação que tive veio dos próprios tripulantes dos navios.

Em 2004 e 2005 estiveram em visitas em Santos Fragatas Niterói recém modernizadas juntamente com as type 22.

Estiveram em exercícios de tiro contra drones.

E nas 2 vezes os próprios tripulantes dos navios me disseram que o Seawolf acertou e o Aspide errou.

[talharim]

Muito interessante este texto do P44.

Põe em xeque o Aspide.

[P44]

Muito interessante este texto do P44.

Põe em xeque o Aspide.

o texto não é meu, não me metas ao barulho, eu apenas fize copy/paste de opiniões de foristas num forum inglês , depois de ter "googlado" por "SeaWolf vs. Aspide"

não me ponhas ao barulho que eu já ando escaldado

[cabeça de martelo]

Gato escaldado de água fria tem medo...não é P44?!

[P44]

Gato escaldado de água fria tem medo...não é P44?!

viva o sócrates!

[Degan]

Henriquejr,

Según Jane´s Naval Weapons Systems, el alcance máximo del Aspide es de 13.000 metros (pese a que también dice que el fabricante “reclama” más de 15km de alcance), y su altura de uso va desde los 15 a los 6.000 metros.
Respecto a Aspide 2000, se anuncian mejoras del 30% en alcance, y un seeker más recistente a las CCME.

1) Tanto los directores de tiro originales, como el misil no tenían capacidad contra misiles Sea Skimmer bajo los 15 metros de altura (es decir TODOS… ), ya que su radar de control de tiro (RAN-10) no es coherente en fase, así que no tiene la capacidad anti clutter MINIMA.
2) La modernización ModFrag soluciona esto cambiando el radar de control de tiro por un RAN-30, que si es coherente en fase y puede traquear adecuadamente misiles roza olas.
3) Posiblemente los mismos Aspide originales (y algunos más) recivieron mejoras en su seeker (Aspide 2000) para mejorar su capacidad CCME.
4) Recordemos que Koslova algo dijo respecto a que los alcances de los Aspide de las Niteroi NO ERAN los anunciados para Aspide 2000, sino que menores.