Fórum Defesa Brasil

Ao contrário, isto ajuda a esfriar os animos....

G-LOC escreveu:

Thor escreveu: Não sei se a disponibilidade atual dos A-1 é essa, pode até ser, nisso eu concordo contigo, tem muita coisa envolvida nesse processo e nesse número que adota, pois se considerar que possuem algumas aeronaves estocadas por diversos motivos, realmente o número é baixo. Mas o que temos visto é que sempre que a FAB precisou mobilizar um número X de aeronaves para as operações, isso foi conseguido. Outro dia mesmo vi aqui no DB a linha de vôo cheia de A-1... vou te falar que isso faz com nossos amigos Sul Americanos olhem com outros olhos.

12% de 50 aeronaves vai dar 6 aeronaves em operação. É fácil encontrar mais do que isso nos exercicios. SC manda quatro e SM manda mais quatro.

G-LOC

G-LOC,

a foto abaixo foi tirada por mim durante o TAC-2008(agosto), um mês depois ocorreria a Operação Cruzex, na foto são 4 AMX's por esquadrão num total de 12, da direita pra esquerda, Adelfi, Centauro, Poker, se essa alegação de que o AMX tem baixa disponibilidade procedesse, gostaria de saber se durante o Torneio, a FAB teria sido irresponável de deixar as respectivas Bases Aéreas dos citados Esquadrões ficarem desguarnecidas, pois pela afirmação de indisponibilidade que alguns desenvolvem aqui não sobraria mais nenhum AMX para prontidão certo?



Gerson

Pelo que eu soube, a disponibilidade não é essa. É superior, não muito, algo em torno de 20% ou um pouco mais. Mas é como o Thor falou, essa disponibilidade é para a rotina, mas sempre que a FAB precisou levar um determinado número de AMX para algum lugar ela o fez sem o menor problema. Deve-se levar em consideração tambem que existem células estocadas e algumas que já estão encostadas aguardando a modernização.

Ou seja, a disponibilidade não é por culpa da aeronave.

Um abraço!

Em outubro de 2007 visitei a BASM, havia pelo menos 6/7 aeronaves sem motor, somente a fuselagem.

Eu já disse anteriormente, se todos os outros argumentos não chegam o AMX permitiu financeiramente terem o terceiro maior fabricante de aeronaves do mundo, é pouco estratégico? Assim o AMX é mesmo um caça bombardeiro estratégico

Mas senhores, estamos discutindo o sexo dos anjos... aeronaves de prontidão, guarnecendo esquadrões e céu são aeronaves de defesa (caças e interceptadores). Aeronaves de ataque não seguem esta mesma metodologia de buscar 100% de prontidão, visto que missões de ataque somente ocorrem depois de um planejamento, dando tempo para os Sargies da manutenção colocarem as penas nos pássaros. Me preocuparia disponibilidade de 20% para F-2000, F-5 e F/A-29 (gostaram da nova designação??? )

Artigo muito interessante a respeito da atuação dos AM-X italianos no Kosovo publicado em 2001.

http://cencio4.wordpress.com/works/ghibli-italys-amx/

Apenas um pequeno trecho: The intervention in the Balkans was an invaluable test bed of the actual effectiveness of the NATO power and at the same time it showed how, most of the US partners, Italy included, lacked advanced weapons systems, communications, precision guided munitions and logistics. This war’s “memories”, will allow planners to better focus on the Forces’ priorities in the future: upgrades of the fleets will be based on the results obtained by the aircraft in a war environment and purchases will be more accurate so as to fill the gap with effectiveness. This is what will happen to one of the winners of the Italian Allied Force: the “Ghibli”. The AMX fleet approached the war with a bad reputation (someone used to say: “it takes-off only because of earth’s curvature and uses fuel to produce smoke!”) but, surprisingly, it performed so well in a highly technological environment so as to be considered one of the most respectable aircraft flying in the Allied Force. Based on these good results, it will surely be upgraded soon.
In order to understand the AMX success, its shortcomings and explain future plans of the Alenia-Aermacchi-Embraer aircraft, we went to Amendola, the base of Operation Ghibli (how the AMX intervention in Serbia was named within the Italian Air Force), and the home of the 32nd Stormo.

E depois disso, os AMX italianos foram modernizados para a versão ACOL. (The final ACOL configuration will include a new IN/GPS navigation system, a new multi-function LCD display, a new Computer Symbol Generator with Digital Map function, crash recorder and the replacement of some obsolete equipments. Besides Alenia Aeronautica and Alenia Aermacchi, the ACOL development phase will be managed in collaboration with the IAF Flight Experimental Unit RSV (Reparto Sperimentale Volo) at Pratica di Mare Air Base near Rome. The main subcontractors for the programme are Boeing (JDAM Mk83 bombs), Galileo Avionica, Lital and Selex Communications. The contract includes the upgrade of 43 single seat AMX fighter bombers and 12 two-seaters, and an integrated logistic support package for all the ACOL configurated aircraft.)

kekosam escreveu:Mas senhores, estamos discutindo o sexo dos anjos... aeronaves de prontidão, guarnecendo esquadrões e céu são aeronaves de defesa (caças e interceptadores). Aeronaves de ataque não seguem esta mesma metodologia de buscar 100% de prontidão, visto que missões de ataque somente ocorrem depois de um planejamento, dando tempo para os Sargies da manutenção colocarem as penas nos pássaros. Me preocuparia disponibilidade de 20% para F-2000, F-5 e F/A-29 (gostaram da nova designação??? )

Exato. Aeronaves que tem função de ataque não precisam estar de prontidão por SEMPRE antes de uma missão de ataque é realizado um "Briefing" ao contrário de aeronaves como o F-2000 e F-5 que precisam SEMPRE estar de prontidão pois são interceptadores.

F/A-29, não é ruim não, daqui a alguns anos talvez tenhamos o F/A-35

Palpiteiro escreveu:Artigo muito interessante a respeito da atuação dos AM-X italianos no Kosovo publicado em 2001.

http://cencio4.wordpress.com/works/ghibli-italys-amx/

Apenas um pequeno trecho: The intervention in the Balkans was an invaluable test bed of the actual effectiveness of the NATO power and at the same time it showed how, most of the US partners, Italy included, lacked advanced weapons systems, communications, precision guided munitions and logistics. This war’s “memories”, will allow planners to better focus on the Forces’ priorities in the future: upgrades of the fleets will be based on the results obtained by the aircraft in a war environment and purchases will be more accurate so as to fill the gap with effectiveness. This is what will happen to one of the winners of the Italian Allied Force: the “Ghibli”. The AMX fleet approached the war with a bad reputation (someone used to say: “it takes-off only because of earth’s curvature and uses fuel to produce smoke!”) but, surprisingly, it performed so well in a highly technological environment so as to be considered one of the most respectable aircraft flying in the Allied Force. Based on these good results, it will surely be upgraded soon.
In order to understand the AMX success, its shortcomings and explain future plans of the Alenia-Aermacchi-Embraer aircraft, we went to Amendola, the base of Operation Ghibli (how the AMX intervention in Serbia was named within the Italian Air Force), and the home of the 32nd Stormo.

E depois disso, os AMX italianos foram modernizados para a versão ACOL. (The final ACOL configuration will include a new IN/GPS navigation system, a new multi-function LCD display, a new Computer Symbol Generator with Digital Map function, crash recorder and the replacement of some obsolete equipments. Besides Alenia Aeronautica and Alenia Aermacchi, the ACOL development phase will be managed in collaboration with the IAF Flight Experimental Unit RSV (Reparto Sperimentale Volo) at Pratica di Mare Air Base near Rome. The main subcontractors for the programme are Boeing (JDAM Mk83 bombs), Galileo Avionica, Lital and Selex Communications. The contract includes the upgrade of 43 single seat AMX fighter bombers and 12 two-seaters, and an integrated logistic support package for all the ACOL configurated aircraft.)

Para mim isso é mais um órgão "chapa-branca"...
E o AMX é o pior vetor de ataque da América do Sul.

Me preocuparia disponibilidade de 20% para F-2000, F-5 e F/A-29 (gostaram da nova designação??? )

Pergunta pra uns bolivianos presos na PF se o Super Tucano merece ou não o F...

gaitero escreveu:

HIGGINS escreveu:
Os AMX's italianos destruíram um monte de maquetes!
Sabes quantas viaturas Sérvias foram destruídas em Kosovo? Eu digo: 12!
Obuses: 2. Outras fontes dizem: 6.

Houve sim, como observado, vasta destruição de maquetes! Mérito para os Sérvios: combatem bem.
Por que houve este fracasso?
Porque a OTAM voava alto, com fito de minimizar o perigo da AAA Sérvia.

Mas os Sérvios não foram dobrados pela campanha aérea?
Sim, mas por aquela que visava as instalações de infra-estrutura: Centrais elétricas, Saneamento básico, Pontes, Estradas, Depósitos de combustível... Ou seja, a campanha estratégica (basicamente norte-americana; não européia).

O que é OTAM?

Caramba, é OTAN! Organização do Tratado do Atlântico Norte. A sigla em ingrês é NATO.
Tú marca em cima, heim? Parece árbitro de futebol protegendo o "frámengú"...

Continuando com os comentários dos italianos a respeito do desempenho dos AM-X no Kosovo:

( http://cencio4.wordpress.com/works/ghibli-italys-amx/ )

“The Operation Ghibli was composed of 19 aircraft, 10 of which had to be ready for flying. They all belonged to the most advanced 3rd Batch version; a reaction force composed of all Ghibli-equipped squadrons 13th, 14th, 103rd and 132nd while 101st OCU provided only pilots since its AMX-Ts couldn’t be sent to combat: despite being very similar to the single seats and retaining the same avionics, they are less manoeuvrable and have shorter endurance”. Ghiblis performed two average sorties per day. Lt.Col. Cicconardi recalled: “We only flew daylight missions as the cockpit lights are not NVG (Night Vision Goggles) compatible. We used both guided (IR “Opher”), unguided munitions (Mk 82) and we received some GBUs (GBU-16s) towards the end of the campaign and had very strict ROE (Rules Of Engagement) so we didn’t release our bombs unless we had all visual confirmations that the target could be hit without collateral damages”. Often aircraft came back from enemy territories with bombs unreleased, especially as a result of seasonal weather conditions in the target areas. On one occasion, an AMX was compelled to jettison his armament in one of the planned dropping areas of the Adriatic: “the pilot had pressed the FIRE trigger but the bombs hadn’t moved from the pylons so although they were still hanging underneath the wings, he was compelled to jettison them before coming to landing”. There was a lack of tankers in the Adriatic so no more than a single plug-in with the refuelers could be made, this sensibly influenced the campaign as aircraft waiting the allocation of a target from an A-FAC were sometimes compelled to head out of the area and return to the base without releasing their armament since they couldn’t refuel again. This occasionally occurred to the Italian AMXs: “we were allocated a “window” in which we had to provide on-call CAS (Close Air Support). If the A-10s didn’t find a target for us during our orbiting time, we headed back”.
Pilots told us they were frequently illuminated by SA-2 Guideline, SA-3 Goa and SA-6 Gainful Surface to Air Missiles during their medium altitude missions but they didn’t unveil how many times missiles were actually sent against them.
The AMX proved itself to be a good means to win the war as Capt. La Montagna told us: “it was so deeply appreciated by the war planners that a US officer once told us -We only need AMXs and A-10s to win this war- because he had realized the aircraft was efficient, accurate and reliable”. The Ghibli could rely on its excellent avionics, very good endurance and navigational systems to reach the target. In the future, it would be even more accurate with replacement of IR guided Opher bombs with Laser Guided Munitions. In fact, implementation of this kind of smart weapons is already in progress within the AMX fleet. Despite being the last Squadron to receive the aircraft, the 13th Gruppo was the first AMX unit to be qualified with Paveways. “We conducted tests from Decimomannu ranges using buddy lasing techniques with the Tornados of the 156th Gruppo from Gioia del Colle” Cicconardi told us. “The Tornados used their CLDP pods for the targeting and we launched the Paveways bombs”. This procedure can also be used for combined operations with other allied aircraft even if in the future AMXs should be equipped with their own targeting pod.
“The AMX’ success is to be credited for the fact that the aircraft operated in the CAS mission, the one it was projected to fulfil. The aircraft was criticised from people who didn’t know it but during the war the Ghibli was able to show its disparaging best qualities: excellent navigational and avionics equipment, good endurance and good cruise and penetration speeds. It is also quite comfortable”. Furthermore, unlike the Tornado IDS fleet, the AMXs were already ready to be flown in war when Allied Force began, since they were equipped with two secure Have Quick radios able to scramble communications

Pombas, esta é a matéria da Revista Força Aérea, só que em inglês...
Não acrescenta nada!

HIGGINS escreveu:Pombas, esta é a matéria da Revista Força Aérea, só que em inglês...
Não acrescenta nada!

Num falei que esse outro órgão de mídia era chapa-branca. Pegou o texto tendencioso da RFA e traduziu para o Inglês.
E aquele livro do A-10 também, pode jogar fora.

Caro Higgins,

A melhor resposta está no texto, dada pelo Lt. Col. Cicconardi: “The AMX’ success is to be credited for the fact that the aircraft operated in the CAS mission, the one it was projected to fulfil. The aircraft was criticised from people who didn’t know it but during the war the Ghibli was able to show its disparaging best qualities: excellent navigational and avionics equipment, good endurance and good cruise and penetration speeds. It is also quite comfortable”.

Palpiteiro