Fórum Defesa Brasil

Immortal Horgh escreveu:A vantagem do SH é em termos eletrônicos mesmo.


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Wolfgang escreveu:As linhas foram traçadas pelo estilista do Rafa. Chegando o inverno, uma blusa de lã com decote em "V" será a sensação da estação. Aquela parte de baixo é a bolsa do Rafa, desenvolvido pela L. Vuitton com materias compostos, de modo a aliviar o peso da bolsa.

soultrain escreveu:A Boeing quer mesmo vender muitos SH, para baixar o UPC e lixar o F-35. Esqueçam o F-15, esse "já não dá jeito" vender.

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born escreveu:

Immortal Horgh escreveu:A vantagem do SH é em termos eletrônicos mesmo.


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Não, a vantagem é em relação a "la prata" e outros ganhos menos aparentes

Immortal Horgh escreveu:

born escreveu: Não, a vantagem é em relação a "la prata" e outros ganhos menos aparentes

Acorda, Born, o SH tem eletrônica mais avançada que o Rafale, um radar que enxerga bem mais longe e fica em desvantagem com relação ao envelope de vôo.



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talharim escreveu:Tente desqualificar o concorrente.

soultrain escreveu:Um comparativo do Toan do F-16.net

F/A-18E v.s RAFALE M

1. Dimensions
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Length: 18.38 m / 15.27 m
B. Span: 13.68 m / 10.80 m (*1)
C. Height: 4.87 m / 5.34 m
D. Wing area: 46.45 m2 / 45.70 m2

*1: The wing span of F/A-18E is 9.32 m with folded outer wings.



2. Weights:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Empty weight: 13,865~14,007 kg / 9,900~10,460 kg (Pesa vazio mais, pois leva mais comb. interno e mais espaco para equipamentos e modernizacoes)
B. Internal fuel: 8,060 litres / 5,750 liters (Aqui reside a vantagem do SH....efeito Flanker. Os americanos gostaram e resolveram repetir tb no F-35. Mais comb interno, menos necessidades de tanques externos)
C. Max. ext. fuel: 9,080 liters / 9,375 liters
D. Max. ext. load: 8,050 kg+ / 9,500 kg
E. Max. take-off weight: 29,937 kg / 24,500 kg (*2)
F. Max. recovery payload: 4,226 kg / 4,804 kg (*3)
G. Max. recovery payload: 2,268 kg / 2,989 kg, night ~ 3,444 kg, day (*4)

*2: Dassault may increase the MTOW of Rafale to 27,200 kg-class after 2010. (Ha uma versao da F-414 EDE com 20% mais de empuxo e maior durabilidade....a ver)
*3: External stores + internal fuel
*4: External stores only



3. Flight Performance (o simbolo > e + tornam estes dados inconclusivos):
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Max. speed, high level: 1.6 Mach+ / 1.8 Mach+ (>1,8 Mach para o SH)
B. Max. speed, low level: < 1.0 Mach / 750 kts (*5) (boato, sem fonte)
C. Mini. flying speed: 125 ~ 135 kts / 100 ~ 115 kts
D. Approaching speed: 142 kts / 120 kts
E. Max. operating altitude: > 15,240 m / 18,400 m
F. Climb rate, sea level: > 254 m/sec+ / > 305 m/sec
G. Normal G-limit of FCS: -3.0 ~ +7.5G / -3.2 ~ +9.0 G
H. Maximal upper G-limit: +10.0 G / > or = +11.0 G
I. Normal AoA limit: 45~60 degrees / 32 degrees (*6) (o SH nao tem limite)
J. Wing-load for air combat: 398.3~401.3 kg/m2 / 291.0~303.3 kg/m2 (*7)
K. T/W ratio for air combat, sea level: 1.05~1.08 / 1.10~1.15 with A/B ( *8 )
L. T/W ratio for air combat, sea level: 0.67~0.69 / 0.73~0.77 with max. mil. (*9)

*5: F/A-18 E/F's maximal speed is less than 1.0 Mach at the height below 10,000 fts. (Chute)
*6: Once cancelling the normal restriction of FBWs, Rafale's AoA could reach more than 100 degrees.
*7 ~ *9: The fighter's weight for air combat = empty weight + 50% internal fuel + MRAAM*6 + SRAAM*2 + pilot and gun shells. (O SH com 50% de combustivel interno leva 4000l . O Rafale leva apenas 2870l)


4. Ferry range:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Ferry range: 2,346 km / > 2,100 km (*10) (nas mesmas condicoes o SH vai mais longe)
B. Ferry range: 3,054 km / 3,704 km (*11) (*12)

*10: clean fighter with internal fuel only.
*11: Ferry range of F/A-18E with 1,800L tank*3 + AIM-9*2 --> 3,074 km
*12: Ferry range of Rafale M with four tank (6,600 L) + MICA*8 --> 3,704 km



5. Combat radius:

# F/A-18E:
A. 720 km hi-lo-lo-hi attack profile with two 480 gallon tanks and four 1000 lbs bombs plus two Aim-9.
B. 855 km on interdiction mission with three 480 gal tanks.
C. 1230 km hi-hi-hi profile with two AIM-9, four Mk.83 bombs, three tanks, two sensor pods.
D. 800 km for fighter escort with two AIM-9 and two AMRAAMs, internal fuel only.
E. Combat endurance: 2 h 15 min with six AAMs and external tanks, 280 km from the carrier. (aqui ele erra mais uma vez. O valor correto eh 2h a 380NM. Aqui mais uma vez em condicoes semelhantes, o SH voa mais)

# Rafale M:
A. 1,100 km with three tanks (4,300 L), four MICA AAMs, and twelve 1,000 Ib bombs.
B. 1,480 km with three tanks (6,000 L), four MICA AAMs, and four 500 Ib GBU-12 LGBs
C. 1,830 km with two CFTs (2,300 L), three tanks (5,700 L), two SCALP-EG and two MICA AAMs.
D. CAP: More than 2 hours (Rafale M with six AAMs and three 1,250L tanks, 185 km away from the carrier)



6. Others:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Frontal RCS: 0.1 m2 / 0.1 to 0.3 m2 (*13) (Chute)
B. Pylonst: 11 and 5 / 13 and 5, all and wet (*14)
C. Prices: 57 million USDs / 69.5 million USDs (*15)
D. Maintenance: 15 / 7 Man-hours per flight hour.

*13: Dassault declared the frontal RCS of Rafale is 1/10 of Mirage-2000 in 1998~1999.
*14: Wet pylon means the pylon that can carry and use the tank.
*15: The price of F/A-18 E is 57 million USDs per fighter in 2003, while the average price of Rafale F3 during 2008~2012 is 69.5 million USDs per fighter.

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jacquessantiago escreveu:

soultrain escreveu:Um comparativo do Toan do F-16.net

F/A-18E v.s RAFALE M

1. Dimensions
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Length: 18.38 m / 15.27 m
B. Span: 13.68 m / 10.80 m (*1)
C. Height: 4.87 m / 5.34 m
D. Wing area: 46.45 m2 / 45.70 m2

*1: The wing span of F/A-18E is 9.32 m with folded outer wings.



2. Weights:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Empty weight: 13,865~14,007 kg / 9,900~10,460 kg (Pesa vazio mais, pois leva mais comb. interno e mais espaco para equipamentos e modernizacoes)
B. Internal fuel: 8,060 litres / 5,750 liters (Aqui reside a vantagem do SH....efeito Flanker. Os americanos gostaram e resolveram repetir tb no F-35. Mais comb interno, menos necessidades de tanques externos)
C. Max. ext. fuel: 9,080 liters / 9,375 liters
D. Max. ext. load: 8,050 kg+ / 9,500 kg
E. Max. take-off weight: 29,937 kg / 24,500 kg (*2)
F. Max. recovery payload: 4,226 kg / 4,804 kg (*3)
G. Max. recovery payload: 2,268 kg / 2,989 kg, night ~ 3,444 kg, day (*4)

*2: Dassault may increase the MTOW of Rafale to 27,200 kg-class after 2010. (Ha uma versao da F-414 EDE com 20% mais de empuxo e maior durabilidade....a ver)
*3: External stores + internal fuel
*4: External stores only



3. Flight Performance (o simbolo > e + tornam estes dados inconclusivos):
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Max. speed, high level: 1.6 Mach+ / 1.8 Mach+ (>1,8 Mach para o SH)
B. Max. speed, low level: < 1.0 Mach / 750 kts (*5) (boato, sem fonte)
C. Mini. flying speed: 125 ~ 135 kts / 100 ~ 115 kts
D. Approaching speed: 142 kts / 120 kts
E. Max. operating altitude: > 15,240 m / 18,400 m
F. Climb rate, sea level: > 254 m/sec+ / > 305 m/sec
G. Normal G-limit of FCS: -3.0 ~ +7.5G / -3.2 ~ +9.0 G
H. Maximal upper G-limit: +10.0 G / > or = +11.0 G
I. Normal AoA limit: 45~60 degrees / 32 degrees (*6) (o SH nao tem limite)
J. Wing-load for air combat: 398.3~401.3 kg/m2 / 291.0~303.3 kg/m2 (*7)
K. T/W ratio for air combat, sea level: 1.05~1.08 / 1.10~1.15 with A/B ( *8 )
L. T/W ratio for air combat, sea level: 0.67~0.69 / 0.73~0.77 with max. mil. (*9)

*5: F/A-18 E/F's maximal speed is less than 1.0 Mach at the height below 10,000 fts. (Chute)
*6: Once cancelling the normal restriction of FBWs, Rafale's AoA could reach more than 100 degrees.
*7 ~ *9: The fighter's weight for air combat = empty weight + 50% internal fuel + MRAAM*6 + SRAAM*2 + pilot and gun shells. (O SH com 50% de combustivel interno leva 4000l . O Rafale leva apenas 2870l)


4. Ferry range:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Ferry range: 2,346 km / > 2,100 km (*10) (nas mesmas condicoes o SH vai mais longe)
B. Ferry range: 3,054 km / 3,704 km (*11) (*12)

*10: clean fighter with internal fuel only.
*11: Ferry range of F/A-18E with 1,800L tank*3 + AIM-9*2 --> 3,074 km
*12: Ferry range of Rafale M with four tank (6,600 L) + MICA*8 --> 3,704 km



5. Combat radius:

# F/A-18E:
A. 720 km hi-lo-lo-hi attack profile with two 480 gallon tanks and four 1000 lbs bombs plus two Aim-9.
B. 855 km on interdiction mission with three 480 gal tanks.
C. 1230 km hi-hi-hi profile with two AIM-9, four Mk.83 bombs, three tanks, two sensor pods.
D. 800 km for fighter escort with two AIM-9 and two AMRAAMs, internal fuel only.
E. Combat endurance: 2 h 15 min with six AAMs and external tanks, 280 km from the carrier. (aqui ele erra mais uma vez. O valor correto eh 2h a 380NM. Aqui mais uma vez em condicoes semelhantes, o SH voa mais)

# Rafale M:
A. 1,100 km with three tanks (4,300 L), four MICA AAMs, and twelve 1,000 Ib bombs.
B. 1,480 km with three tanks (6,000 L), four MICA AAMs, and four 500 Ib GBU-12 LGBs
C. 1,830 km with two CFTs (2,300 L), three tanks (5,700 L), two SCALP-EG and two MICA AAMs.
D. CAP: More than 2 hours (Rafale M with six AAMs and three 1,250L tanks, 185 km away from the carrier)



6. Others:
# Fighter: F/A-18E / Rafale M
A. Frontal RCS: 0.1 m2 / 0.1 to 0.3 m2 (*13) (Chute)
B. Pylonst: 11 and 5 / 13 and 5, all and wet (*14)
C. Prices: 57 million USDs / 69.5 million USDs (*15)
D. Maintenance: 15 / 7 Man-hours per flight hour.

*13: Dassault declared the frontal RCS of Rafale is 1/10 of Mirage-2000 in 1998~1999.
*14: Wet pylon means the pylon that can carry and use the tank.
*15: The price of F/A-18 E is 57 million USDs per fighter in 2003, while the average price of Rafale F3 during 2008~2012 is 69.5 million USDs per fighter.

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Super Trunfo com vies pro-Rafale.