Fórum Defesa Brasil

Apenas um aviso aos colegas: este tópico não se tornou anglófono (anglógrafo?), pode-se perfeitamente postar em Português, nota-se inclusive a preocupação de nosso colega Indiano em postar traduções de seus textos, tri?

O que não queremos é flood e off, afinal, quantas chances temos de debater a IAF com um cidadão da Índia sem precisar sair do DB?

Perfeito Túlio, muito bem lembrado.
É que a gente as vezes vai no embalo.

The questions raised by the friends here are very valid - which is that, with too many types, comes a lot of complexity and expense. In India's case, since we have been making (with permission and help from manufacturers), some of the aircraft, we have managed to handle these problems. But times are changing. Our large purchases of Russian types were partly political, and partly cost. As one official told an Indian Air Force planner about the Antonov AN-32, "buy as many as you can, now, because the situation will never repeat, right now, you are getting them for the price of a small car". Basically, for political reasons, Russia would sell us these planes at "friendship prices", which were very less. Of course, over time, they would get some money back in lifecycle costs, but even then, costs for the plane paid at beginning, were very low, or adjusted against Rupee- Rouble account.

Today, it is a different thing. That is why, if we are paying in dollars, the Indian Air Force is having a worldwide competition for the MMRCA.

Even then, if we check the Su-30 MKI, it comes in at around $ 45 Million per plane, with all improvements, built at HAL, India, which is a good price for that level of capability. Of course, balanced against these are high lifecycle costs, for a heavy fighter and occasional problem with inflation/ cost increase for aircraft kits.***

Going forward by 2020-25, IAF plan is to concentrate on 4 types,

Su-30 MKI
MMRCA
LCA
PAK-FA/FGFA

There is one more type in plans, MCA which might replace LCA.

Which is still better than five-six fighter Air Force with many types:

MiG-21- 4 types (FL/MF/Bis/Bison)...
MiG 23 - 2 types
MiG-27 - 2 types
MiG-29- two types
Jaguar- two types
Mirage 2000- 1 type

Of course, it should be even simpler, simply 3 types, Su-30 MKI, MCA, LCA MK2 in a perfect world, but we cannot overcome decades of underinvestment in aerospace industry in 10 years of work, so we are combining "imports" with "local development".

It is a very long race and rewards come after a lot of effort as we are discovering and powers like Russia and US, discovered and implemented with great investment and effort.


*** Su30 details: India is making Su-30 MKI in four phases.

Phase 1, is to assemble from semi-knocked down kits.
Phase 2, is to assemble from completely knocked down kits.
Phase 3, is to assemble from mix of local and imported (Russian) parts.
Phase 4, is to build complete (almost,>80-90%) plane with Indian parts.

Original plan was to supply 140 planes by 2017-18, but IAF has asked for all aircraft to be given by 2014-15.

This "cut" in timeline has caused the percentage of planes delivered in Phase 1-3 to go up and percentage of aircraft in Phase 4 to go down (60 planes). But as long as parts are made in India, this will really help over time.

Also, IAF ordered 40 more planes which will be in Phase 3, (total order of ~230 MKIs) and is planning for 50 more planes which will either be Phase 2, or Phase 3. (which will make total numbers 280)

Aim is to get as many planes into service as fast as possible to meet Chinese power and growth of Pak AF (with new F-16s).
Currently, IAF has 5 squadrons, with 98 Su-30 MKIs in service.

Portugese translation:

As questões levantadas pelas amigos aqui são muito válidos - o que é que, com muitos tipos, vem um monte de complexidade e custos. No caso da Índia, uma vez que temos vindo a fazer (com a permissão e ajuda de fabricantes), alguns dos aviões, conseguimos lidar com esses problemas. Mas os tempos estão mudando. Nossos grandes compras de tipos russo foram parcialmente política, e em custo. Como um funcionário disse um planejador Indian Air Force sobre o Antonov AN-32 ", comprar tantos como você pode, agora, porque a situação nunca se repetirá, agora, você está recebendo-os para o preço de um carro pequeno". Basicamente, por razões políticas, a Rússia poderia vender-nos desses planos a preços de "amizade", que eram muito menos. Claro que, ao longo do tempo, eles iriam ganhar algum dinheiro de volta nos custos do ciclo de vida, mas mesmo assim, os custos para o plano pago no início, foi muito baixa, ou ajustada contra Rupee-conta rublo.

Hoje, é uma coisa diferente. É por isso que, se estamos a pagar em dólares, a Força Aérea Indiana está tendo uma competição mundial para o MMRCA.

Mesmo assim, se formos verificar o Su-30 MKI, que vem em torno de US $ 45 milhões por avião, com todas as melhorias, construído no HAL, a Índia, que é um bom preço para esse nível de capacidade. Claro, equilibrado contra estes são custos do ciclo de vida mais elevada, por um caça pesado e problemas ocasionais com a inflação / aumento do custo dos kits de aeronaves .***

Indo para a frente de 2020-25, o plano de IAF é concentrar-se em 4 tipos,

Su-30 MKI
MMRCA
LCA
PAK-FA/FGFA

Há mais um tipo de planos, MCA, que poderia substituir LCA.

Que é ainda melhor do que cinco ou seis caças da Força Aérea com muitos tipos:

MiG-21-4 tipos (FL / MF / Bis / Bison) ...
MiG 23-2 tipos
MiG-27 - 2 tipos
MiG-29-dois tipos
Jaguar e dois tipos
Mirage 2000 - 1 tipo

Claro, deve ser ainda mais simples, apenas 3 tipos, Su-30 MKI, MCA, LCA MK2 em um mundo perfeito, mas não podemos superar décadas de subinvestimento na indústria aeroespacial em 10 anos de trabalho, por isso estamos combinando as "importações" com "desenvolvimento local".

É uma corrida muito longa e recompensas vêm depois de muito esforço, estamos descobrindo e potências como Rússia e E.U., descoberto e implementado com grande investimento e esforço.


*** Su30 detalhes: Índia está fazendo Su-30 MKI em quatro fases.

Fase 1, é a montagem de semi-derrubadas kits.
Fase 2, é a montagem de kits de veículos desmontados.
Fase 3, é a montagem de mistura de locais e importados (Russo) peças.
Fase 4, é a construção completa (quase,> 80-90% plano) com peças indianas.

Plano original era de 140 aviões de abastecimento de 2017-18, mas IAF pediu para todas as aeronaves a ser dada por 2014-15.

Este "corte" na linha de tempo fez com que o percentual de aviões entregues em Fase 1-3 para subir e porcentagem de aeronaves na Fase 4 para ir para baixo (60 aviões). Mas, enquanto as peças são feitas na Índia, isso vai realmente ajudar ao longo do tempo.

Além disso, IAF mandou mais de 40 aviões, que será na Fase 3, (total da ordem de ~ 230 MKIs) e está a planear para mais 50 aviões, que irá ser Fase 2 ou Fase 3. (o que irá fazer um número total de 280)

Objetivo é fazer com que tantos aviões em serviço o mais rápido possível para atender o poder chinês e do crescimento do Pak AF (com a nova F-16s).
Atualmente, a IAF tem 5 esquadrões, com 98 Su-30 MKIs em serviço.

Verdade aí!!

x2 CM hehehe!

[]s
CB_Lima

Archer,

Can you give us details about IAF general opinion of the M2000? How is the modernization program going?

More M2000 was a logical step some years ago, but it doesn't make sense anymore. What happened, in you opinion, that put this deal down the drain?

[[]]'s

Aí cambada, bleza, deu para notar q VOSMEÇÊS (BY cupincha) dominam a língua da Rainha... Eu também me defendo... No entanto, estamos no fórum Defesa BRASIL, logo vamos usar a língua lusa ? Sendo assim, obrigado e até mais...


EDIT MOD - Túlio


Leias o logotipo do DB: BRASILEIRO POR NATUREZA, INTERNACIONAL POR VOCAÇÃO.

Há montes de posts em Espanhol, Francês e Inglês - até em Russo os há - então, se não entendes Inglês, lamento, mas temos de dar algum espaço a quem entende, sim? E reitero que a oportunidade é ÍMPAR de ver a IAF mais de perto sem sair do DB...

soultrain escreveu:Archer,

Can you give us details about IAF general opinion of the M2000? How is the modernization program going?

More M2000 was a logical step some years ago, but it doesn't make sense anymore. What happened, in you opinion, that put this deal down the drain?

[[]]'s

Hi Soultrain,

The IAF's Mirage 2000 pilots really like the aircraft. From the maintenance point of view, its also well liked, but of course, what was meant for French conditions, usually has a lower MTBO/MTBF in Indian conditions. Even so, it is one of our most reliable and well appreciated aircraft.

The reason is because of its excellent avionics, which even for its generation, are still valuable today. Our Mirage 2000 H/TH have very good handling with FBW, "ok" radar and decent nav-attack suite. We modified them with Litening Laser Designation Pods and used them heavily in the 1999 war with Kargil.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... PCamp.html

Overall, with >90% mission availability rates, good cockpit, and "decent" avionics, our pilots and staff really like them. One of the "hidden stories" is that at Cope India 04, where the USAF got "defeated", many of the sorties were by Mirage 2000's but the Su-30 K and MiG-21 Bison upgrade took most of the glory.

But with modern standards coming to the neighbourhood (Pakistan with F-16 Block 50/52, China with J-11 and J-10), the aircraft is falling behind. The upgrade as decided with France is to bring them to full DASH-5 standards, with RDY-2 radar and up to date avionics and self defence system which should be the ICMS Mk3. Airframe will also be relifed for extra years/ hours of flying. The plan is to upgrade the first few planes in France, and rest at HAL in India.

Where it is "stuck" is at price. The French are asking for a lot of money, so some haggling is going on to reduce the price (if possible). The IAF can afford to do wait a bit, since the MiG-29 UPG has also been signed, and the MiG-27s and Jaguars are being upgraded locally, and some 13 Su-30 MKIs are being added every year (IAF wants 20 Su-30 MKI per year).

Even so, the Upg should be signed by next year.

Now, to your second point about the Mirage 2000 V (Dash 5) Plan. The plan was to purchase 1 squadron from France and build rest at HAL in India. We would get exclusive marketing rights for the Mirage 2000 in Asia. Something like Dassault has offered to you (Brazil) and Rafale for South America.

As to why the plan to purchase the Mirage 2000 got cancelled, its complicated

India has a very strict audit system, run by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India who examines all procurements/purchases of the Government and has the power to make comments on these decisions.

The CAG disliked the IAF attempt to purchase extra Mirage 2000 V's because it was a "single vendor deal" which meant IAF accepts and pays whatever price Dassault wants (because there is no competition).

Using this as the excuse, the new Govt of India which came into power, which did not want to spend on defence, cancelled the deal and sat on it for 2 years. When IAF finally managed to convince them that it was losing squadrons and needed aircraft fast, the Govt finally launched the MRCA contest.

That would avoid the audit issue, and the MRCA contest became more and more complicated with every fighter available squeezed into it. From F/A-18 E/F to Gripen NG. The French could not keep the Mirage 2000 V lines open for India ($$$) and realised Mirage would lose versus the competitors so they offered the Rafale instead.

In a way, its good India is getting newer technology, but the delays thanks to the Government stupidity are horrible.

Archer escreveu: Overall, with >90% mission availability rates, good cockpit, and "decent" avionics, our pilots and staff really like them. One of the "hidden stories" is that at Cope India 04, where the USAF got "defeated", many of the sorties were by Mirage 2000's but the Su-30 K and MiG-21 Bison upgrade took most of the glory.

Very intersting. Here we thought the 'victories' belonged to MiGs and Sukhoys...

Archer escreveu:Where it is "stuck" is at price. The French are asking for a lot of money, so some haggling is going on to reduce the price (if possible). The IAF can afford to do wait a bit, since the MiG-29 UPG has also been signed, and the MiG-27s and Jaguars are being upgraded locally, and some 13 Su-30 MKIs are being added every year (IAF wants 20 Su-30 MKI per year).

Very intersting again: we aparentelly are in the same mess with the French: the costs (i'm talkin' 'bout Rafales)...

Archer escreveu:(...)the MRCA contest became more and more complicated with every fighter available squeezed into it. From F/A-18 E/F to Gripen NG. The French could not keep the Mirage 2000 V lines open for India ($$$) and realised Mirage would lose versus the competitors so they offered the Rafale instead.

Nice for you, no tech comparisons between M2000 and Rafale, i suppose.

Archer escreveu:In a way, its good India is getting newer technology, but the delays thanks to the Government stupidity are horrible.

Hey, are ya talkin' 'bout India or Brasil???

Nukualofa77 escreveu:Aí cambada, bleza, deu para notar q VOSMEÇÊS (BY cupincha) dominam a língua da Rainha... Eu também me defendo... No entanto, estamos no fórum Defesa BRASIL, logo vamos usar a língua lusa ? Sendo assim, obrigado e até mais...


EDIT MOD - Túlio


Leias o logotipo do DB: BRASILEIRO POR NATUREZA, INTERNACIONAL POR VOCAÇÃO.

Há montes de posts em Espanhol, Francês e Inglês - até em Russo os há - então, se não entendes Inglês, lamento, mas temos de dar algum espaço a quem entende, sim? E reitero que a oportunidade é ÍMPAR de ver a IAF mais de perto sem sair do DB...

Desculpe, falha minha, pesquisando o perfil do usuário Archer descobri q ele era indiano. Havia pensado q somente pessoas de língua materna lusa estava discutindo em inglês... O q seria excludente já q muito foristas não conseguiriam acompanhar o raciocínio da discussão... Ato falho, espero q compreendam, [], até mais...

Manjo porra nenhuma de inglês, leio mais ou menos e só. Aalias, sou uma negação nisso de língua, tenho até vergonha, vou dar um jeito para aprender rápido alguma coisa além do tuga-BR porque vou precisar. Mas é bom ver o indiano por aqui. Bem-vindo. E a novela acabou semana passada. Abraços!

Eu me defendo, dá para acompanhar...

Acompanhar é beleza, tranquilo, agora escrever é very hard, hardíssimo diria

Desculpem o off!

The five posts above are just some Brasilian folks - very nice guys, i say - tellin' they can NOT to undestand almost anything about we're talkin' 'ere. Study hard, guys, i did it and here i am...

Túlio escreveu:Very intersting. Here we thought the 'victories' belonged to MiGs and Sukhoys...

# Cope India 1 (2004) also known as Cope India'04:
The MiGs and Sukhois also had their victories, the Sukhois apparently winning almost all their engagements with the F-15s.

At the end of the day, Cope India -04 exercise results were thanks to tactics, tactics, tactics and overconfidence from the USAF side. They did not come in expecting that they would find a competitive AF. At the end of the day, it was bad mission planning from their side.

What our guys did was "embed" our Bisons (MiG-21 Upg) with the strike package, so when the F-15s would try to attack the strike group (MiG-27s), they would suddenly get Bisons coming out and taking BVR shots at them.

We did not repeat tactics that failed, had some 2-3 plans before hand, and which would be changed once the pilot called an "audible" (strike leader gave a command).

The Su-30 Ks acted both as escort (using IRST some times for passive attacks) and also as long range radar outposts for the Bisons/ MiG strike package.

The Mirage 2000's also escorted the strike package/ were part of the strike package, so they also had a fair share of "wins".

What I meant was that the Americans really publicized the role of the Sukhoi and the Bison but the Mirage 2000's role went "silently" - the French would have loved it, if it got as much publicity.

One disadvantage for the US side in the first exercise was that they simulated Sparrows while we simulated fully active AAMs, so that really added to the "unfair" scores.

But even then, they too took part in deciding the exercise rules of engagement and overall, most of the Avionics on the US F-15C were superior to all the IAF fighters taking part, the N001 radar equipped Su-30 K, the RDM equipped Mirage 2000 H (oldest model), N019 equipped MiG-29, Kopyo equipped MiG-21 Bis.

So they really failed in the mission planning bit and were "out fought".

# Cope India 2006

Next exercise, they came with a full detachment of F-16CJs to India for Cope 2006 and with an AWACS also.

This time, to avoid the media glare, the IAF and USAF both split their groups into "Red and Blue" with mixed USAF-IAF as good guys and bad guys both. So the US media would not play this up again.

But even the AWACS had problems tracking the MiG-21 Bisons (very small aircraft).

"Unofficially", the word was again the IAF had "no problems" and "could manage well".

Indian Su-30 MKIs took part for the first time in 3-4 sorties but WVR only, versus the F-16. Officially nothing released, but when book on Su-30 squadron was released, it had a picture of a F-16 "caught" in the gun camera (HUD Display) of a MKI

# 3: Exercise versus Singapore

The Su-30 MKI were finally "unleashed" (chain taken off the dog ) against Singapore AF at the same airbase (KKD - KalaiKunda - hard to pronounce, its Bengali language, in the state of West Bengal - India has over 30 regional languages and many sub variations).

In engagements versus the RSAF F-16 Block 50/52 equipped with Elta jammers, ELBIT Helmet Sight and new generation WVR missiles, the IAF fielded MiG-21 Bison, Mirage 2000H, MiG-29, and finally, the Su-30 MKI.

Results: MiG-21 Bisons did not do so well as against USAF - IAF had to now work out new tactics to figure out "why", MiG-29s and Mirage 2000's did "ok" which means good or equal ratio of wins and losses, but Su-30 MKI won ALL 9/9 engagements, BVR and WVR, with Bars radar used in "training mode".

#4 Exercise versus Royal Air Force (Indradhanush)

Next set of exercises versus RAF- Royal Air Force - with Su-30 MKIs and other usual aircraft versus Tornado F.3's and AWACS. Again, RAF used AWACS to full advantage and set up some successful BVR traps, but overall, the Su-30 MKIs dominated WVR, BVR. Again, Bars in training mode.
Royal AF commander: "This (Tornado) is XWing, your MKI is a Death Star"...talking in terms of Star Wars (movie).

Some more interesting details are there on Su-30 K versus Mirage 2000 RDY (not RDY2) in France, and Mirage 2000H versus Cheetah C in South Africa.

The Su-30 MKI versus EF in UK was a "no show" with both sides keeping their secrets close.

Very intersting again: we aparentelly are in the same mess with the French: the costs (i'm talkin' 'bout Rafales)...

France, items are good cost is always very high.

Nice for you, no tech comparisons between M2000 and Rafale, i suppose.

Problem is as we discovered in France, even Su-30 K can "match" some aspects of Mirage 2000. Its a huge risk to buy such expensive planes and discover that new Chinese J-11 (Chinese version of Su-27) is equal or even better than them in some areas.

Hey, are ya talkin' 'bout India or Brasil???

We should exchange some of our leaders for a year, you will ask us to take them back and even give us half of Rio De Janeiro as bonus.

Túlio escreveu:The five posts above are just some Brasilian folks - very nice guys, i say - tellin' they can NOT to undestand almost anything about we're talkin' 'ere. Study hard, guys, i did it and here i am...

Oops should I translate all posts then using Google? I am lazy...so I forgot to do it.