Fórum Defesa Brasil

Finalizo aqui pedindo minhas humildes desculpas por ter levantado tal heresia, óh grande guru das estepes russas.

Tá concordo que um é 4ºG e o outro de 5ºG, mas o que eu questiono é esse desenvolvimento é tão próximo um do outro. Porque não ficam só no 5ºG?

Peraí CM a quanto tempo o F-15 tá voando? já tá perto de se aposentar e o F-22 era para substitui-lo. Não dá pra fazer essa comparação com um caça que tá saindo do forno agora. E eu não estou querendo que a Rússia faça nada não sou o mandatário de lá, estou apenas querendo tirar essa dúvida que me ocorreu.

É tô vendo que qualquer questionamento sobre como os Russos fazem as coisas é um sacrilégio, por isso peço perdão. Mas uma vez digo que só levantei essa dúvida devido o desenvolvendo ao mesmo tempo de um caça de 4ºG e um de 5ºG e se não seria um disperdício financeiro e intelectual, não de sua operação conjunta.

Não disse que ia ter um treco, e foi logo enxergar preconceito na minha dúvida !!

Calma cara, me desculpe se não me fiz entender. A hipótese que levantei foi baseada nos recursos empregados, pois como sou economista por força do hábito sempre vejo a relação custo/beneficio, emprego dos meios disponíveis, duplicidade de esforços, viabilidade econômica e etc. Não foi minha intenção debochar do avião. E veja o SU-47 Berkut não era só um demonstrador de tecnologia e ficou nisso, podia a Rússia achar que o Pak-Fa estava com um desenvolvemento maduro e acelerado e não veria mais sentido em gastar recursos no Su-35BM e ficar só com o 5G, por acaso isso é uma ofença.

Carlos Mathias escreveu:
O F-15 voa a mais ou menos o mesmo tempo que o SU-27.
A questão é que não há dinheiro nem nos EUA para trocar toda a frota por 5ºG. Isso leva a operação conjunta das duas gerações, e sabe-se que um pequenina porção das missões requer um 5ºG genuíno.
É o caminho, operar conjuntamente as duas gerações.

Francoorp escreveu:

Carlos Mathias escreveu:Calma gente, calma que ele tá estudando prá voltar e editar os posts dele.

crubens escreveu:

Carlos Mathias escreveu:
O F-15 voa a mais ou menos o mesmo tempo que o SU-27.
A questão é que não há dinheiro nem nos EUA para trocar toda a frota por 5ºG. Isso leva a operação conjunta das duas gerações, e sabe-se que um pequenina porção das missões requer um 5ºG genuíno.
É o caminho, operar conjuntamente as duas gerações.

Pronto tá aqui a luz que me faltava que não estava enxergando, grande guru flankeiro

mandalacabla escreveu:Não sabia que tinha sido feito esse anúncio pelo governo russo, quando foi assinado o contrato dos su-35bm?

- It is said that this Thursday will be the first flight of Fifth-Generation Fighter. Meanwhile in the U.S. the prototype heavy fighter YF-22 took off back in 1991. Now the U.S. Air Force has more than a hundred front-line F-22s. Why are we so far behind the U.S.?

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rate of fifth-generation fighter development in both countries were generally comparable. The prototype aircraft developed by Russia's Mikoyan firm (product 1.44) was ready to fly in 1994-1995, but due to lack of financial resources has made two flights in 1999 alone, and the programme was discontinued.

In conditions of chronic under-funding of Russia's military-industrial complex, it was not possible to create such a complex weapons system, like fifth-generation fighter, equal to U.S. standards. In fact, the normal budget Financing project was open only in 2005-2006, but up to this point work was carried out mainly at Sukhoi's own expense. From this point of view, if we can assume that the real hard work on the PAK-FA programme began only in mid-decade.

In addition, by following the Americans we can minimize the conceptual and technical risks, to avoid the mistakes that were committed by the leader of the race. Also note that Russia remains the only country, except the United States, with a capability to create a fifth generation fighter.
In the World there'll probably be only three such states- the United States, Russia and China.

- Why was Sukhoi declared the winner of the 5th gen fighter contest when MiG, as you said, already had a flying prototype of this aircraft?

In 2002, the most important factor in choosing "Sukhoi" as the winner was the ability of the OKB to begin work on the PAK FA with the company's own funds. Sukhoi beat "MiG" not only in the financial sense, but also, most importantly, had a much more impressive capacity to innovate. But now in the United Aircraft Building Corporation will open prospects for subcontracting the PAK FA programme.

-The U.S., along with the heavyweight F-22, has created an easier and cheaper mass-produced fifth-generation fighter- F-35. Why has Russia gone towards the creation of a heavy machine, but not a cheap lightweight fighter?

This is quite justified. Russia and our partner on this project, India - are countries with vast territories, and in any case, we need a powerful machine with a big heavy capability and increased radius of action.

- It is considered that the distinctive features of a fifth generation fighter - are low profile RCS, radar with active phased array antenna, supersonic cruising speed and maneuverability. Will PAK FA have all these attributes?

Yes. The aerodynamic configuration of PAK FA is slightly more conservative compared to the F-22, but without a doubt, measures have been implemented on the aircraft to reduce it's visibility in all (not just radar) physical fields. For the PAK FA is being developed not just a radar with an active antenna, but an entire multi-purpose integrated radar system, which will contain five built-in antennas.

-When the plane finally actually appears, won't it will be "golden"? So expensive that it will not find buyers. What is your prediction: How many of these machines are the Russian and the Indian Air Forces planning to buy?

Based on the economic opportunities in Russia and the needs of its air force, we can assume that prior to 2025-2030 we should have to buy from between 150 to 200 fifth-generation fighters. Today, however, to accurately predict this, is of course, impossible, because the real economic situation for Russia in 2020 is unknown.

The Indian Air Force, I think, will order a minimum of 200-250 such aircraft, and India's the rate of economic growth remain at levels of the current decade, that is about 7-8%, we can hope for larger purchases.

The first flight tests of the fighter of the fifth generation will pass on this week in Russia
T -50 of OKB of the dry


In Russia there are two main arrogant projects of the armaments, for which the management of the country made a basic rate. These are sea-launched rocket “[Bulava]” and aircraft of the fifth generation, received conditional design designation T -50. On that which occurs with “The [bulavoy]”, it is known for all - its unsuccessful tests the entire world follows.


On the aircraft of the 5th generation known somewhat less. Entire connected with it is stored in the deepest secret, even its real appearance. On it into the latter several years audibly only the fact that it any minute now will take off. Until now these promises only were extended in the time. And here, as it became known “for MK”, on this week the aircraft nevertheless must finally rise into the sky…

The aircraft of the fifth generation its first flight must complete on this week in Komsomol'sk-na-Amur - the basic production area of firm “dry”, where it is done by T -50. On the eve of the flight “MK” it had a talk with the chief military expert in the region of armaments, the member of the Scientifically- expert council of the committee of the State Duma on defense, the editor of the periodical Of moscow Of defense Of brief Constantine [MAKIENKO].


- They indicate that the first flight of the Russian fighter of the fifth generation takes place on this Thursday. Meanwhile in the USA a similar prototype of heavy fighter F -22 took off still in 1991. Now in the arsenal by USAF (United States Air Force) it is already more than hundred combatant F -22. Why we thus did remain the USA?


- Before the collapse of the USSR the rates of the creation of the fighter of the fifth generation in both countries were as a whole compared. The prototype of the Russian machine of the development of [mikoyanovskoy] firm (article 1.44) was ready to flight in 1994-1995, but for lack of the financial resources it completed two flights only in 1999, and subsequently this program did not obtain continuation.


Under chronic conditions the underfinancing of Russian defense- industrial complex it is not possible to create this complex weapon system as the fighter of the fifth generation, equal with the USA rates. Actually the normal budget financing of project was opened only in 2005-2006, and to this moment of work they conducted mainly due to its own means “of dry”. From this point of view, assuming that real intensive work according to the program of the promising aviation complex of front aviation (PACK [FA]) began only in the middle of decade, its dynamics appears thus far very not bad.
Furthermore, movement after the Americans makes it possible to minimize conceptual and technical risks, to avoid the errors, which were perfected by the leader of race. I note also that Russia thus far remains the only, besides the USA, country, which creates the complex of the fifth generation. Probably, in the world such states there will be entire of tri- USA, Russia and China.


- Why by the conqueror of competition VVS on the creation of the aircraft of the 5th generation it did become “dry”, but not “the MiG”, which, as you did say, already did have the flying prototype of this aircraft?


- In 2002 the important factor in favor of the selection “of dry” was the ability this KB to begin works on THE PACK [FA] on its own means. “Dry” won “MiG” not only in financial sense, but also, most important, had much more imposing innovation potential. But now in the united aircraft construction corporation are opened the prospects for use in the program THE PACK [FA] of possibilities both KB.


- However “dry”, it seems, not too- that did justify the given to it advantage? To us they promised the first flight of prototype first 2008- m, then in 2009, but program constantly lagged behind the declared graph.


- The life cycle of the complex of the fifth generation will be 40-50 years, or 480-600 months. On this scale the delay into the pair or at least even in 12 months does not have fundamental value. The delays in the implementation of complex engineering designs - this is standard not only for Russia, but also for the USA, and European Countries. It suffices to recall, as complicatedly is born the plastic American dream Of boeing of 787 Dreamliner or European military transport aircraft A -400[m].


- IN the USA together with heavy F -22 is created the lighter and cheaper mass fighter of the fifth generation F -35. Why Russia is banal by means of creating of heavy machine, but not cheap lightweight fighter?


- This completely [opravdanno]. Russia and our partner in this project India - this of the country with the large territory, and powerful heavy machine with the large load and the increased radius of action is in any event necessary to us.


Furthermore, domestic equipment, radars and rockets are, as a rule, heavier and more dimensional than their western analogs; therefore for guaranteeing the same characteristics of complex as a whole it is necessary to have heavier platform. Finally, VVS of many countries of world encounter the problem of the scarcity of crew and prefer to have the limited quantity of fighters with the increased possibilities, but there are many simpler and cheaper machines.


Certainly, in the ideal would be preferably have in VVS RF two types of fighters - heavy and light. I think, if the economic possibilities of the country allow, the program of the creation of light machine will be also realized. However, in the first stage its role can play fighter “Su-35[S]”.


- It is customary to assume that the distinguishing features of the fighter of the fifth generation - radar low observability, radar with the impulse phased cascade, cruising supersonic speed and super-maneuverability. Will possess PACK [FA] all these signs?


- Yes. Aerodynamic configuration PACK [FA] is somewhat more conservative in comparison with F -22, but, out of any doubt, in the machine package of measures for reduction in its distinctness in all (but not only radar) physical fields will be realized. For PACK [FA] is developed not simply radar with the impulse cascade, but the entire multifunctional integrated radio-electronic system, which will contain five built-in antennas.





- You all so beautifully describe, but, when you pose questions to military leaders, they, after casting down eyes, although reluctantly, they nevertheless recognize that with this aircraft there are still too many problems: there are questions to the armament, not all is smooth with the radar, and the main thing - there is no engine of the fifth generation. But without entire this some “[nedopyatoe]” generation is obtained…


- Actually, the prototype of the fighter of the fifth generation is now equipped with the engines of intermediate generation and does not bear radar with the impulse cascade. But this is the normal practice: first experiment T -10 (prototypes of aircraft “Su-27”) were also first equipped with the motors of the previous generation. This the cycle of the development of engine, as a rule, connected with the fact that exceeds the duration of works directly on the glider. Tests PACK [FA] will engage another [pyat]-[sem] of years, and by this time, I hope, the motor of the fifth generation will be created.


However, as far as radar is concerned, work on the creation of onboard radar system of the new generation actively moves. Certainly, technical risks exist always, and the hundred per-cent guarantee of success be it cannot, but it is necessary to note that in Russia the work on the creation of radar Afar moved already to the stage of flight tests by one of the stations, which was represented in the tender of Indian VVS. Yes even in principle the school of the design of radars in Russia is very strong. In this region unpleasant surprises are improbable.


Finally, the complex of onboard equipment, close one in their appearance to the fifth generation, are intended to realize already on the intermediate fighter “Su-35[S]”. Generally parallel development PACK [FA] and “Su-35” will make it possible to perfect separate elements for the fighter of the fifth generation on “Su-35”, and subsequently these technical solutions can be will be used, also, for the modernization of very “Su-35”.


As far as rockets are concerned, this is the very closed theme. It is reliably known that the work on the creation of the rockets, which can be placed not only during the external suspensions, but also in the internal sections of fighter, in Russia is conducted. It is possible to also confidently indicate that also industry, and VVS, and even the high political management of the country (military technical competence of which it is not excessive) they realize that rocket weapon together with onboard equipment - these are the key elements of the effectiveness of contemporary and all the more of promising fighters.


- Well it is good, but will not prove to be so that when this aircraft finally actually it will appear, then it will prove to be “gold”? It will be so expensive, which for it will not be located buyers. Your forecast: how many such machines they do plan to stock up Russian and Indian VVS?


- On the basis of the economic possibilities of Russia and the needs of its VVS, it is possible to assume that in the period up to 2025-2030 it should be stocked up from 150 to 200 fighters of the fifth generation. But it is not possible to today accurately forecast this, of course, since it is unknown, what will be real economic situation in Russia in 2020.


Indian VVS, I think, they will order as the minimum 200-250 such machines, and if the growth rates of this country are preserved at the level of the present decade, i.e., order 7-8%, it is possible to hope also for the more scale purchases.


Finally, the order 30% buyers of the market for the heavy fighters of third country it will be reserved for THE PACK [FA] at least because this is American and Chinese proposal. The number of states, for example, in southeastern Asia, will be oriented to the purchase of precisely Russian- Indian machines for military-political reasons.


- You it does not seem that the fighter of the 5th generation - this is faster the arrogant project, than which has real applied value? We nevertheless were late with this aircraft, American- that to us no longer to overtake. Yes even so whether already it for us is necessary? Here, for example, Europe not at all conducts the development of the fighters of the 5th generation, there counts on the deep modernization of the existing machines. It can be, and us it was to be been more modestly and been concentrated during the development “Su-35” and “MiG-35”?


- No. In contrast to Russia the European Countries do not encounter the real threat of their safety, but for waging of semi-colonial expeditionary wars completely it suffices to have aviation complexes on the base of the platforms of the fourth generation. Russia in this respect is located in much the more indeterminate position.


Our country borders on the number of the states, which carry out demonstratively [rusofobskuyu] foreign policy. The fighters F, completely can appear in arsenal of some of them into the next 15-20 years. But in the Far East some our neighbors have themselves to Russia territorial claims, and these neighbors also, it is completely probable, they will possess the fighters of the fifth generation, including of heavy class.


Finally we simply do not know, what peace in 2040 or 2050 will be. But life cycle PACK [FA], I will repeat, it will be prolonged approximately until now.
Furthermore, it is simply foolish to reject the natural competitive advantages, which Russia in the segment of heavy fighters possesses. At present our country controls (without taking into account internal American market) to half of the World Market for these machines. But such segments, where the Russian companies would be world leaders and occupied tens of percent of global market, very a little.


Finally, program PACK [FA] made it possible to preserve the foremost even Soviet school of military aircraft construction. This would be impossible, if by [aviaprom] it limited only to the modernization of the machines of the previous generation. But in the case of the loss of school for its recreation tens of billions of dollars would be required, but the main thing is/are not less than 20-30 years of persistent work and shift of several generations of engineers and designers. Similarly, precisely, this occurred in Russia in the region of designing the commercial airplanes. But if in commercial aviation it is possible to attempt to overcome delays via international cooperation, then in the military affairs this is much less probable. Here we must design exclusively for our own possibilities.