Fórum Defesa Brasil

Espero que em 2010 o Brasil e a FAB se dêem ao luxo de comprar o melhor caça com o melhor pacote de tecnologia do FX2, que é o Rafale.

Gráfico com a avaliação feita pela Real Força Aérea Holandesa:



Os pontos vermelhos são o score e os traços pretos a possibilidade de evolução.

697/850 para o JSF,
695/850 para a Rafale
583/850 para o Typhoon
580/850 para o Gripen

SH BEEM abaixo dos 600/850.

Feliz Natal!

[]'s

Tem lo link desta informação Alberto?

brisa escreveu:Tem lo link desta informação Alberto?

Os créditos para a figura e para a info são do jornal holandês NRC Handelsblad http://www.nrc.nl/.

Obtive a figura nesse site:
http://bruxelles2.over-blog.com/45-cate ... 50304.html

[]'s

Nenhuma novidade.
Dependendo de que lê, obviamente.

Cunha escreveu:

ELSONDUARTE escreveu:Caças & Petralhices

Fonte: http://www.brasilwiki.com.br/noticia.ph ... icia=18562

Matéria tendenciosa é pouco!

Todo mundo aqui sabe que o FX-2 tem 1 ano, em 2002 era o FX cancelado pelo FHC!!!

Que midiazinha mequetrefe e politiqueira...

A bem da verdade, o F-X foi cancelado pelo Lula no início do seu mandato, quando ainda se falava em fome zero. E o F-X 1.5 também.

Divino Alves escreveu:

Cunha escreveu: Matéria tendenciosa é pouco!

Todo mundo aqui sabe que o FX-2 tem 1 ano, em 2002 era o FX cancelado pelo FHC!!!

Que midiazinha mequetrefe e politiqueira...

A bem da verdade, o F-X foi cancelado pelo Lula no início do seu mandato, quando ainda se falava em fome zero. E o F-X 1.5 também.

Ok, retiro o que eu disse sobre FHC, mas não muda o fato de que o FX-2 não é o FX; até os caças são diferentes! Portanto, o FX-2 não está atrasado desde 2002 como insinua a "matéria". Talvez eles quisessem dizer que o reaparelhamento da Força Aérea esteja atrasado, o que são outros 500.

Boas festas a todos!

AlbertoRJ escreveu:Espero que em 2010 o Brasil e a FAB se dêem ao luxo de comprar o melhor caça com o melhor pacote de tecnologia do FX2, que é o Rafale.

Gráfico com a avaliação feita pela Real Força Aérea Holandesa:



Os pontos vermelhos são o score e os traços pretos a possibilidade de evolução.

697/850 para o JSF,
695/850 para a Rafale
583/850 para o Typhoon
580/850 para o Gripen

SH BEEM abaixo dos 600/850.

Feliz Natal!

[]'s

A FAB deveria fazer o mesmo e divulgar o seu relatório. Os scores pelo menos.
Pq o MD não quer nem ouvir falar nisso?

Feliz Natal!

[]s

AlbertoRJ escreveu:Espero que em 2010 o Brasil e a FAB se dêem ao luxo de comprar o melhor caça com o melhor pacote de tecnologia do FX2, que é o Rafale.

Gráfico com a avaliação feita pela Real Força Aérea Holandesa:



Os pontos vermelhos são o score e os traços pretos a possibilidade de evolução.

697/850 para o JSF,
695/850 para a Rafale
583/850 para o Typhoon
580/850 para o Gripen

SH BEEM abaixo dos 600/850.

Feliz Natal!

[]'s

Parece que essa avaliação foi a original que ocorreu entre 2001 e 2002 (muitos caças nem estavam operacionais).
No short list recente (vide abaixo), 3 caças estava sendo considerados: F-35, Gripen NG e F-16 avançados.

Ares Blog
Eurofighter, Rafale Definitely Out of Dutch Fighter Evaluation
Posted by Joris Janssen Lok at 7/18/2008 5:23 AM CDT

The Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation Rafale are officially no longer regarded as candidates to be evaluated for the Netherlands F-16 replacement requirement, the country's undersecretary for defense procurement Jack de Vries has written to Parliament.

"Despite my visit to both companies on July 8, after which both agreed to consider participation in the evaluation process [for possible alternatives to the JSF], both have now formally notified us that they will not get involved," de Vries says.

Lockheed Martin and Saab have agreed to provide updated information on their candidate aircraft (the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter and Advanced F-16 for Lockheed Martin; and the Gripen Next Generation for Saab) so that the update of the evaluation (the original evaluation process took place in 2001-2002, after which the F-35A was selected as the "best aircraft for the best price") will look at these three fighter aircraft, de Vries says.

Santiago,

Essa avaliação é a mais recente, depois houve toda a chiadeira, a SAAB disse o que disse, a Dassault recusou participar mais etc etc...

[[]]'s

Alberto, aonde que o Rafale tem o melhor pacote???
Melhor vetor pode até ser mas melhor pacote não é.

soultrain escreveu:Santiago,

Essa avaliação é a mais recente, depois houve toda a chiadeira, a SAAB disse o que disse, a Dassault recusou participar mais etc etc...

[[]]'s

O processo de seleção holandes começou em 1999, com os mesmos caças do gráfico que Alberto postou (Gripen e não Gripen NG). A avaliação ocorreu entre 2001 e 2002. Entre esse periodo e 2008 os holandeses eliminaram o SH, Typhoon e Rafale. E aceitaram novas propostas da Saab (Gripen NG) e da LM (F-16 avançados e F-35), conforme postei anteriormente (artigo de 2008).

A matéria abaixo de 1999 confirma:

DATE:28/04/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Dutch eye F-16 replacement
Gert Kromhout/RIJNSBURG

The Netherlands has launched a formal requirement study for a new fighter to replace its Lockheed Martin F-16MLUs between 2010 and 2025.

The study will take into account expected long-term developments in the use of air power, and assess the potential of cruise missiles, armed helicopters and unmanned reconnaissance and combat air vehicles. While a firm number of aircraft is not yet determined, it is generally understood to be between 120 and 140, costing at least Fl10 billion ($5 billion).

Although the government has requested detailed information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 and the Saab/BAe JAS39 Gripen, it is widely accepted that the US-led Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the most likely candidate. Another major life extension of the F-16 is possible, although this may not be a cost-effective solution as one major midlife update has already been completed.

The Netherlands is taking part in the JSF concept demonstration phase as a "limited co-operative partner", and a government decision will be made next year on participation in engineering and manufacturing development.

The Netherlands defence secretary told parliament recently, however, that industrial participation in the JSF does not automatically mean that the aircraft will be selected as an F-16 replacement.

Histórico:

Replacement for the F-16
The Netherlands Air Force wants to replace its current F-16 fleet in the next decade. Originally, candidates for the replacement were the Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Block 52/60, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen and Lockheed Martin's F-35. In 2002 The Netherlands signed a MOU (Memoradum Of Understanding) to co-develop the F-35 as a 'Tier 2' Partner. That deal is worth around 800 million US dollars, advanced by the Dutch government on behalf of Dutch industries: After the unwanted demise of Fokker Aircraft, the government wanted to retain whatever aerospace industry it could.

After a first comparison, the F-35 seemed to be the best replacement for the current F-16. But Saab is now offering their latest aircraft, the Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation), to The Netherlands at a much lower price (including maintenance for its entire lifespan). The Netherlands did compare the Saab Gripen NG and the F-35 in early 2009 and the F-35 came out on top. Many sources and signs indicate that the F-35 will be the next fighter of the Royal Netherlands Air Force.[citation needed]
In early 2008, a decision was put before Parliament to buy two test aircraft for Dutch pilots to train in the US. But instead, in April 2009 it was decided to buy just one test aircraft and defer the final decision as to what to buy to 2011, after the elections. A new government and Parliament will review the whole process again while opposition to the F-35 is growing ever stronger. Reasons for this are ever rising costs, uncertainty about exact prizes, slips in the schedule of delivery and thus uncertainty about delivery dates. Also, Dutch industries have been complaining about their offsets from the USA. [8]

Santiago escreveu:

soultrain escreveu:Santiago,

Essa avaliação é a mais recente, depois houve toda a chiadeira, a SAAB disse o que disse, a Dassault recusou participar mais etc etc...

[[]]'s

O processo de seleção holandes começou em 1999, com os mesmos caças do gráfico que Alberto postou (Gripen e não Gripen NG). A avaliação ocorreu entre 2001 e 2002. Entre esse periodo e 2008 os holandeses eliminaram o SH, Typhoon e Rafale. E aceitaram novas propostas da Saab (Gripen NG) e da LM (F-16 avançados e F-35), conforme postei anteriormente (artigo de 2008).

A matéria abaixo de 1999 confirma:

DATE:28/04/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Dutch eye F-16 replacement
Gert Kromhout/RIJNSBURG

The Netherlands has launched a formal requirement study for a new fighter to replace its Lockheed Martin F-16MLUs between 2010 and 2025.

The study will take into account expected long-term developments in the use of air power, and assess the potential of cruise missiles, armed helicopters and unmanned reconnaissance and combat air vehicles. While a firm number of aircraft is not yet determined, it is generally understood to be between 120 and 140, costing at least Fl10 billion ($5 billion).

Although the government has requested detailed information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 and the Saab/BAe JAS39 Gripen, it is widely accepted that the US-led Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the most likely candidate. Another major life extension of the F-16 is possible, although this may not be a cost-effective solution as one major midlife update has already been completed.

The Netherlands is taking part in the JSF concept demonstration phase as a "limited co-operative partner", and a government decision will be made next year on participation in engineering and manufacturing development.

The Netherlands defence secretary told parliament recently, however, that industrial participation in the JSF does not automatically mean that the aircraft will be selected as an F-16 replacement.

Histórico:

Replacement for the F-16
The Netherlands Air Force wants to replace its current F-16 fleet in the next decade. Originally, candidates for the replacement were the Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Block 52/60, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen and Lockheed Martin's F-35. In 2002 The Netherlands signed a MOU (Memoradum Of Understanding) to co-develop the F-35 as a 'Tier 2' Partner. That deal is worth around 800 million US dollars, advanced by the Dutch government on behalf of Dutch industries: After the unwanted demise of Fokker Aircraft, the government wanted to retain whatever aerospace industry it could.

After a first comparison, the F-35 seemed to be the best replacement for the current F-16. But Saab is now offering their latest aircraft, the Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation), to The Netherlands at a much lower price (including maintenance for its entire lifespan). The Netherlands did compare the Saab Gripen NG and the F-35 in early 2009 and the F-35 came out on top. Many sources and signs indicate that the F-35 will be the next fighter of the Royal Netherlands Air Force.[citation needed]
In early 2008, a decision was put before Parliament to buy two test aircraft for Dutch pilots to train in the US. But instead, in April 2009 it was decided to buy just one test aircraft and defer the final decision as to what to buy to 2011, after the elections. A new government and Parliament will review the whole process again while opposition to the F-35 is growing ever stronger. Reasons for this are ever rising costs, uncertainty about exact prizes, slips in the schedule of delivery and thus uncertainty about delivery dates. Also, Dutch industries have been complaining about their offsets from the USA. [8]

A avaliação acima inclui todo os avanços, por isso além da pontuação obtida pelo modelo real, os holandeses colocaram o potencial de crescimento de cada caça no gráfico. Inclusive com a consideração dos Rafales F3 e F-4. O Gripen com a possível nova versão e o pontencial de crescimento, por sinal, bem grande.

A grande diferença para o programa da FAB é que a Holanda fez um comparação técnica entre as plataformas, e não de pacotes, não é possível comparar pacote com itens tão subjetivos como no nosso FX-2.

[]´s

gomugomu escreveu:Alberto, aonde que o Rafale tem o melhor pacote???
Melhor vetor pode até ser mas melhor pacote não é.

O melhor pacote é algo subjetivo, o melhor vetor pode ser verificado por análise técnica objetiva.

[]´s

Santiago escreveu:

AlbertoRJ escreveu:Espero que em 2010 o Brasil e a FAB se dêem ao luxo de comprar o melhor caça com o melhor pacote de tecnologia do FX2, que é o Rafale.

Gráfico com a avaliação feita pela Real Força Aérea Holandesa:



Os pontos vermelhos são o score e os traços pretos a possibilidade de evolução.

697/850 para o JSF,
695/850 para a Rafale
583/850 para o Typhoon
580/850 para o Gripen

SH BEEM abaixo dos 600/850.

Feliz Natal!

[]'s

Parece que essa avaliação foi a original que ocorreu entre 2001 e 2002 (muitos caças nem estavam operacionais).
No short list recente (vide abaixo), 3 caças estava sendo considerados: F-35, Gripen NG e F-16 avançados.

Ares Blog
Eurofighter, Rafale Definitely Out of Dutch Fighter Evaluation
Posted by Joris Janssen Lok at 7/18/2008 5:23 AM CDT

The Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation Rafale are officially no longer regarded as candidates to be evaluated for the Netherlands F-16 replacement requirement, the country's undersecretary for defense procurement Jack de Vries has written to Parliament.

"Despite my visit to both companies on July 8, after which both agreed to consider participation in the evaluation process [for possible alternatives to the JSF], both have now formally notified us that they will not get involved," de Vries says.

Lockheed Martin and Saab have agreed to provide updated information on their candidate aircraft (the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter and Advanced F-16 for Lockheed Martin; and the Gripen Next Generation for Saab) so that the update of the evaluation (the original evaluation process took place in 2001-2002, after which the F-35A was selected as the "best aircraft for the best price") will look at these three fighter aircraft, de Vries says.

Santiago, a avaliação foi divulgada em 2008 e não me parece ser um exercício de "futurologia".

[]'s

Santiago escreveu:

soultrain escreveu:Santiago,

Essa avaliação é a mais recente, depois houve toda a chiadeira, a SAAB disse o que disse, a Dassault recusou participar mais etc etc...

[[]]'s

O processo de seleção holandes começou em 1999, com os mesmos caças do gráfico que Alberto postou (Gripen e não Gripen NG). A avaliação ocorreu entre 2001 e 2002. Entre esse periodo e 2008 os holandeses eliminaram o SH, Typhoon e Rafale. E aceitaram novas propostas da Saab (Gripen NG) e da LM (F-16 avançados e F-35), conforme postei anteriormente (artigo de 2008).

A matéria abaixo de 1999 confirma:

DATE:28/04/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Dutch eye F-16 replacement
Gert Kromhout/RIJNSBURG

The Netherlands has launched a formal requirement study for a new fighter to replace its Lockheed Martin F-16MLUs between 2010 and 2025.

The study will take into account expected long-term developments in the use of air power, and assess the potential of cruise missiles, armed helicopters and unmanned reconnaissance and combat air vehicles. While a firm number of aircraft is not yet determined, it is generally understood to be between 120 and 140, costing at least Fl10 billion ($5 billion).

Although the government has requested detailed information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 and the Saab/BAe JAS39 Gripen, it is widely accepted that the US-led Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the most likely candidate. Another major life extension of the F-16 is possible, although this may not be a cost-effective solution as one major midlife update has already been completed.

The Netherlands is taking part in the JSF concept demonstration phase as a "limited co-operative partner", and a government decision will be made next year on participation in engineering and manufacturing development.

The Netherlands defence secretary told parliament recently, however, that industrial participation in the JSF does not automatically mean that the aircraft will be selected as an F-16 replacement.

Histórico:

Replacement for the F-16
The Netherlands Air Force wants to replace its current F-16 fleet in the next decade. Originally, candidates for the replacement were the Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Block 52/60, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen and Lockheed Martin's F-35. In 2002 The Netherlands signed a MOU (Memoradum Of Understanding) to co-develop the F-35 as a 'Tier 2' Partner. That deal is worth around 800 million US dollars, advanced by the Dutch government on behalf of Dutch industries: After the unwanted demise of Fokker Aircraft, the government wanted to retain whatever aerospace industry it could.

After a first comparison, the F-35 seemed to be the best replacement for the current F-16. But Saab is now offering their latest aircraft, the Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation), to The Netherlands at a much lower price (including maintenance for its entire lifespan). The Netherlands did compare the Saab Gripen NG and the F-35 in early 2009 and the F-35 came out on top. Many sources and signs indicate that the F-35 will be the next fighter of the Royal Netherlands Air Force.[citation needed]
In early 2008, a decision was put before Parliament to buy two test aircraft for Dutch pilots to train in the US. But instead, in April 2009 it was decided to buy just one test aircraft and defer the final decision as to what to buy to 2011, after the elections. A new government and Parliament will review the whole process again while opposition to the F-35 is growing ever stronger. Reasons for this are ever rising costs, uncertainty about exact prizes, slips in the schedule of delivery and thus uncertainty about delivery dates. Also, Dutch industries have been complaining about their offsets from the USA. [8]

Mas onde é que "eliminaram"? Num mundo paralelo? Os fabricantes retiraram-se, foi publico, ouve declarações pela falta de seriedade dos Holandeses nesta disputa.

O que é certo é que o Rafale ficou em "igualdade" técnica com o F-35, embora fosse realidade versus papel e o papel aceita tudo...Já o SH...

[[]]'s