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Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Ter Mar 09, 2010 11:04 pm
por Penguin
Skyway escreveu:O mundo roda, gira, da uma voltinha e alguem volta com essa idéia de fazer avião sem canhão. :?

A desculpa agora é que os mísseis são mais precisos, né? Aí um piloto se pega numa situação sem mísseis e com um baita inimigo na cola a curta distância e vai xingar mil vezes quem teve essa idéia de tirar o canhão.
Perai! A versão "A", com canhão interno será a de maior profusão.
A "C" é a versão exclusiva da US Navy.
E a "B" a versão para o Marines e o Reino Unido, de decolagem/pouso vertical.

[]z

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Ter Mar 09, 2010 11:56 pm
por Luís Henrique
soultrain escreveu:É complicado...

Primeiro pergunte-se qual o ultimo avião militar desenvolvido pela Boeing? Depois pergunte-se pela quantidade de m... que eles fizeram no Pentágono?

Acrescente-se o inicio do programa, o Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter project (CALF) :lol: desenvolvido pela ARPA como um STOVL e substituto do F-16. Posteriormente foi fundido com o Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST). A LM convenceu que poderia transformar um STOVL num caça convencional barato e eficaz.

O focus do programa foi, como se percebe, a versão STOVL. Foi este o driver do programa e ai o X-35 tinha a vantagem do desenho adquirido ao Yakovlev Design Bureau, do YAK-141.

O sistema do X-32, era basicamente o do Harrier, com todas as suas limitações de performance e payload, o X-35 era mais arriscado, mas os Russos já o tinham feito com algum sucesso.

Junte isto tudo e mais uns pormenores, como a LM já ter o F-22 (diminuição de risco) e temos todos os caças futuros dos EUA no mesmo cesto.

Há muitos outros pormenores, mas resumindo dá isto.

[[]]'s
É, também tenho minhas dúvidas. Mas digamos que o F-35 não ficará atrás e poderá possuir uma vantagem devido a RCS.
Porém, F-22 e Pak-Fa o SUPERAM em tudo.

Sobre o MiG-35, não sabia que a Rússia irá adquiri-lo massissamente.
Que eu saiba a aposta é o Pak Fa. Ja falaram em até 600 Paks, ja falaram em até 430 Paks para a força aérea e já falaram em uma encomenda inicial de 250 Paks + 250 para a Índia.

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 12:23 am
por Skyway
Santiago escreveu:
Skyway escreveu:O mundo roda, gira, da uma voltinha e alguem volta com essa idéia de fazer avião sem canhão. :?

A desculpa agora é que os mísseis são mais precisos, né? Aí um piloto se pega numa situação sem mísseis e com um baita inimigo na cola a curta distância e vai xingar mil vezes quem teve essa idéia de tirar o canhão.
Perai! A versão "A", com canhão interno será a de maior profusão.
A "C" é a versão exclusiva da US Navy.
E a "B" a versão para o Marines e o Reino Unido, de decolagem/pouso vertical.

[]z
O que não quer dizer nada, porque as 3 versões são previstas para entrar em combate...sendo assim, que dê a mesma capacidade de combate aos 3.

Tirar o canhão pode fazer muito sentido quando se analisa os mísseis de hoje, mas isso já aconteceu no passado e a lição deveria ter sido aprendida.

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 12:38 am
por kirk


Sds
kirk

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 12:47 am
por kirk


Sds
kirk

Desculpe se já foi postado !

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 1:11 am
por Penguin
F-35B With External Stores

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Imagem
The F-35A has an internal 25mm gun, the -B and -C do not, but (will) have a pod which can be carried for when the mission requires it. Although in no cases are the ammunition loads very large.

Recent history suggests that guns have very limited utility in the air-to-air role. In the Gulf War ('91), of the 41 air-to-air kills, only two were with guns - and those were both A-10 v. helicopter. IOW, *no* allied fighter shot down anything with a gun.

In the air-to-ground role, it does have use, and that's probably a good chunk of the reason why they chose a 25mm gun for the F-35 (compared to the much more typical 20mm on prior aircraft).

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 3:35 am
por Carlos Lima
O interessante 'e que o outro lado da Moeda sugere que o canhao 'e uma arma de efeito psicologico bem significativo em conflitos como o do Iraque e do Afeganistao.

Seu uso ja livrou muitas tropas da coalisao de emboscadas e situacoes dificeis pela sua capacidade de tiro mais "selecionado" e efeito moral significativo.

Mas como sempre digo, existem argumentos para todos os lados.

[]s
CB_Lima

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qua Mar 10, 2010 6:50 am
por Sterrius
225 balas numa arma de rotação? Isso da quantos segundos de tiro? :shock:
Pra tão poucas balas deveriam ter ido de canhão normal, aumentando-se o calibre pra maior efeito.
Recent history suggests that guns have very limited utility in the air-to-air role. In the Gulf War ('91), of the 41 air-to-air kills, only two were with guns - and those were both A-10 v. helicopter. IOW, *no* allied fighter shot down anything with a gun.


Eu nao consideraria a guerra do iraque o melhor lugar pra se presumir as batalhas aereas do futuro..... os aviões iraquianos dificilmente estavam modernos o suficiente pra enfrentar os caças americanos de igual pra igual. Diferente dos principais adversarios (Russia, India, China etc) que terão tais equipamentos em todos os seus caças no medio/longo prazo.

Se tão criando F35 pra bater em iraques da vida podiam se poupar o trabalho e continuar no F18.

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qui Mar 11, 2010 1:00 pm
por P44
Pratt F-35 engine cost overrun up by $600 mln


WASHINGTON, March 10 (Reuters) - The cost overrun on the main engine for the Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jet has grown by $600 million over the past year, despite tough cost-cutting measures by engine maker Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp (UTX.N), a Navy document shows.
The total cost to complete the Pratt F135 engine is now estimated to be $7.28 billion -- $2.5 billion more than the $4.8 billion initially projected for the engine, according to the document, which was first reported by Aviation Week magazine on its website on Wednesday.
That is an increase of $600 million from the $1.9 billion cost overrun that was reported last year by the House Armed Services Committee.
Pratt spokeswoman Erin Dick said she was not familiar with the new number, and emphasized that the company's aggressive cost-cutting measures were taking effect.
Pratt also offered the Pentagon a double-digit percentage reduction in engine cost in its latest contract proposal.
Pentagon acquisition chief Ashton Carter had expressed concerns about cost growth on the Pratt engine last year, but endorsed Pratt's efforts to cut costs in a memo to F-35 international partners dated February 24, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters.
Carter said a special independent "Joint Assessment Team" he appointed concluded that projected cost growth on the engine could be reduced significantly by investing in affordability measures and through a renewed commitment by Pratt.
"We believe the contractor can realistically achieve its stated cost reduction goals but will continue to monitor its progress," Carter wrote in the memo.
Congressional aides said they are awaiting additional data on the cost of the engine when the Pentagon sends lawmakers an annual report on acquisition costs on April 1.
But several aides said the latest briefing they received on the F-35 program revealed continued cost growth on the main engine, a development they described as "problematic."
Carter is implementing a major restructuring of the overall F-35 program, including adding $2.8 billion more to the development phase of the program and slowing down the expected ramp up in production.
He is due to testify at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the F-35 program on Thursday that was requested by Senator John McCain.
McCain's dogged investigation of wasteful Pentagon programs has led to major acquisition reforms in recent years.
News of the continued cost growth comes just as the Pentagon is redoubling its efforts to cancel an alternate engine for the F-35 fighter that was initiated by Congress as a hedge against problems with a single engine.
Lawmakers defied a presidential veto to fund the second engine built by General Electric Co (GE.N) and Rolls Royce last year and say they're ready to fight the Pentagon and White House to maintain the program again this year.
A recent Pentagon analysis said it would cost $2.9 billion over six years to complete work on the GE-Rolls engine, but GE and Rolls-Royce say they need just $900 million to complete the development program and $400 million more for tooling.
The Pentagon analysis also concluded that the longer term "life cycle" costs of having two engines were comparable to having only one, although it did not foresee any savings. (Reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa; Editing by Gary Hill)


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN101 ... arketsNews

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qui Mar 11, 2010 3:30 pm
por P44
March 11 (Bloomberg) -- Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 jet fighter, its largest program, faces “substantial risk” of not delivering “the expected number of aircraft and required capabilities on time,” congressional auditors said today.

The program “continues to struggle with increased costs and slowed progress,” problems that “were foreseeable,” Michael Sullivan, the U.S. Government Accountability Office’s top F-35 analyst, told the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Sullivan, in prepared remarks, recommended the Pentagon consider reducing its annual planned purchases of the plane unless the program shows “progress in testing and manufacturing.”
Sullivan’s assessment is a warning to the world’s largest defense company. The Air Force wants to buy 43 fighters in fiscal 2011, 13 more than Congress approved this year. The armed services panel has authority to cut the request, and GAO recommendations often form the basis of congressional cuts.
The F-35 is the military’s most expensive weapons program. The projected cost for the planned purchase of 2,457 U.S. aircraft now appears to have increased to $323 billion from $298 billion two years ago, and that’s up 40 percent from the $231 billion when Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed won it in 2001, Sullivan said.
The Pentagon is taking “positive steps that if effectively implemented” should improve the program and provide “more realistic cost and schedule estimates,” he said. Still, “further cost growth and schedule extensions are likely.”

Next-Generation Fighter
The F-35 is the military’s next-generation fighter. It is designed for missions including bombing and air-to-air combat, and it will be used by the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. It will replace aircraft including F-16s and A-10s, as well as Harrier aircraft flown by the Marines and the U.K.
Committee Chairman Carl Levin of Michigan said he convened today’s hearing because “we’ve been waiting for answers about costs -- where they have gone up and in what specific areas.”
“We’re concerned about both cost and delays and whether or not we are going to keep costs under control and what’s going to happen to the calendar: How is that going to slip, not just our for our own capabilities but what does that do to the allied participation?” Levin said in an interview before the hearing began.
The program has eight partner nations contributing their own funds for development, including the U.K., Italy, Canada, Australia, Denmark and The Netherlands.

Partner Nations
Sullivan told the committee that program costs overall have increased $46 billion since 2007, and the development schedule has been extended 30 months.
That extension includes a new 13-month delay directed last month by the Pentagon’s top weapons buyer, Ashton Carter. In addition, Carter added four test aircraft, shifted $2.8 billion in production funds for continued research and delayed the purchase of 122 jets to beyond 2015.
Carter, in remarks prepared for the committee today, said the Air Force and Navy now project they won’t have the first combat-ready planes until 2016, three years later than the Air Force planned and two years later than the Navy’s objective. The Marine Corps’ target date remains 2012, he said.

Air Force ‘Disappointed’
Air Force Secretary Michael Donley and Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz said yesterday they “are disappointed” by Lockheed’s “failure to deliver flight test aircraft this year.”
The company has been experiencing “assembly inefficiencies that must be corrected to support higher production rates,” they told the House defense appropriations subcommittee.
Sullivan said that “by December, only four of 13 test aircraft had been delivered and total labor hours had increased more than 50 percent above earlier estimates.”
Lockheed Martin spokesman Chris Geisel said the company expects to be back on schedule next year and is making steady improvement in manufacturing.
“Production trends show radically marked improvement across the board,” including the latest three aircraft to enter the assembly line that are proceeding on schedule, he said in an e-mailed statement.
Lockheed fell $1.22 to $81.36 at 10:12 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares climbed 28 percent in the past 12 months.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 ... -says.html

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qui Mar 11, 2010 7:52 pm
por Junker
Joint Strike Fighter soars to $95M
By JEN DIMASCIO | 3/11/10 1:44 PM EST


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John McCain pointed out that the news about the jet's increase in price was buried on the fifth page of testimony. Photo: AP


The cost of a single Joint Strike Fighter has soared to $95 million in the past eight years, a 50 percent increase, Pentagon officials told the Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday.

Senators were already agitated by a trickle of bad news about the program without a complete explanation and made their discomfort plain.

“We have not been up to speed as much as we should have been,” said Sen. John McCain, the committee’s ranking Republican, pointing out that the news about the jet’s increase in price was buried on the fifth page of testimony from Ashton Carter, the Pentagon’s acquisition chief. The problem isn’t new. In fact, it’s plagued many major Pentagon programs, he added. “The taxpayers are a little tired of this, and I can’t say that I blame them,” McCain said.

The issue of cost hits the Joint Strike Fighter especially hard, because the Pentagon had billed it as a bargain for its fifth-generation capabilities. The F-22 Raptor, by comparison, wound up costing about $300 million per plane. And now that seems to be changing.

Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the chairman of the committee, zeroed in on a recent independent report on the program that found “affordability is no longer embraced as a core pillar” for the program that has enjoyed “strong support” for the jet.

“People should not conclude that we will be willing to continue that strong support without regard to increased costs coming from poor program management or from a lack of focus on affordability,” Levin said. “We cannot sacrifice other important acquisitions … to pay for this.”

Carter tried to control the damage, stressing that the Pentagon has put measures in place to improve the management of the program while admitting room for improvement. By next year, the Pentagon will aim to negotiate a fixed-price deal with Lockheed Martin for new aircraft, a way to ensure that the price of additional jets doesn’t continue to climb.

“We’re going to aggressively manage the program from this point forward,” Carter said. “We need to wrestle these costs down.”

The cost problem is a doozy for other reasons, too. The Joint Strike Fighter is one of the last tactical aircraft being manufactured in the United States, and the Pentagon has staked the future plans of the Air Force, the Navy and the Marine Corps on the airplane's success. Those services all plan to retire aging fighter jets, and any delay to the JSF program would require adjustments on military bases across the country.

Cost escalation and delays also open the Pentagon to criticism about its past investments. In order to pay for fighter, the Pentagon last year ended production of the Air Force’s F-22 Raptor and dismissed the option of buying F-18 fighters on a multi-year contract for the Navy.

Lawmakers with parochial interests in those programs are already steaming. With the delay to the JSF, Carter acknowledged that the Pentagon is negotiating with Boeing for a savings of more than 10 percent on a multi-year purchase of F-18 types of aircraft.

“I hate to tell you I told you so,” said Democrat Sen. Claire McCaskill from Missouri, where Boeing’s defense operations are based. “But I knew it wasn’t going to be on time. … We save money for the multi-year. We ought to save money if we’re going to buy the jets.”

By April 1, the Air Force will formally report its cost increase to Congress, and the Pentagon is scheduled to complete its review of the program’s new structure by June.

But while the Pentagon is putting in place changes that would help, the Government Accountability Office is warning that additional woes may be ahead.

“Restructuring is not done and further cost growth and schedule extensions are likely,” Michael Sullivan, the GAO’s director of acquisition and sourcing management said.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34273.html

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qui Mar 11, 2010 8:33 pm
por soultrain
O problema é que escondem as razões do aumento de custos, além do fabricante o próprio Pentagono e GAO têm culpa no cartório.

Quando decidiram não ter aviões de pré produção, cortarem grandemente nos programas de teste, com a finalidade de poupar dinheiro, já se adivinhava o que ia acontecer, o fabricante até deve ter esfregado as mãos.

Agora com mais cortes, vai ser bonito vai.

[[]]'s

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Qui Mar 11, 2010 9:46 pm
por Sterrius
Problemas pro F35B. Ele esta em risco de ser impossibilitado de usar aeroportos comuns.

Motivo? Seus jatos a 1700º derretem o asfalto e seus jatos a mach 1 jogam qualquer detrito pra todos os lados.

Pra dentro dos paises utilizadores otimo. Mas duvido que os oponentes vão gastar dinheiro ajeitando seus aeroportos pros F35 do oponente 8-]

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Sex Mar 12, 2010 11:18 am
por P44
Joint Strike Fighter Faces Critical Period


(Source: U.S Department of Defense; issued March 11, 2010)



WASHINGTON --- Contracting for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, touted as the future backbone of U.S. air superiority, must be brought in line with budget realities to make the aircraft affordable again, a defense official said today.

Key manufacturing and testing milestones are expected for the fighter between now and 2011, Ashton B. Carter, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

“The next two years will be critical ones for the Joint Strike Fighter,” Carter said, “with the delivery of test aircraft, … completion and analysis of hundreds of test flights, and commencement of flight training.”

Pentagon and defense industry officials made efforts last week to explain adjustments made in the wake of a Defense Department study last year that found the development phase of the revolutionary aircraft had slipped by 30 months. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates took measures to reduce the lag time to 13 months, officials said.

Early last month, Gates announced the restructuring of the program -- the most expensive acquisition in U.S. military history -- with the objective of restoring the development program schedule.

Carter, in a phone interview last week, said he was able to report to program partners, including the prime contractor Lockheed Martin, that Gates’ modifications provided the program a realistic plan instead of one that was “blindly optimistic” or “fatalistic.”

The stealthy, supersonic F-35 will replace a wide range of aging fighter and strike aircraft for the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and eight international partners.

The Defense Department report showed the program was taking longer and costing more than either the government’s development office or the contractor had predicted, said Carter, who emphasized that the review turned up no major technological or manufacturing problems.

“This schedule and cost trend was unacceptable for the taxpayers of the U.S. and for the other eight nations,” he said in the interview last week. “The schedule slip was estimated at 30 months in the development program. The cost of the airplanes had grown since 2002, and for a variety of reasons, the JSF program would breach the Nunn-McCurdy threshold.”

The Nunn-McCurdy law requires that Congress be notified of a cost growth of more than 15 percent in a program. It also calls for cancellation of programs for which total cost grew by more than 25 percent over the original estimate.

“We didn’t wait for the Nunn-McCurdy paperwork to play out,” Carter said. “We began to review and restructure the JSF program as though it were already in Nunn-McCurdy breach, and the results of that review and restructuring were subsequently described by Gates.”

Carter reiterated to lawmakers today that reports last showed the program failed to meet expectations, and described management measures put in place to increase oversight of the program.

“Studies conducted over the past year indicate that the JSF program fell short of expectations and must be restored to affordability and a stable schedule,” he told senators.

Gates elevated the position of the JSF program executive to three-star rank, which Carter said reflected a need for experienced and vigorous management. The executive primarily will focus on three phases of the contract life: the developmental test program, the ramp-up to full production and Nunn-McCurdy cost concerns.

“I pledge that we will keep this committee fully and promptly informed of this program’s progress. We will also keep our international partners fully and promptly informed,” Carter said. “The program will benefit from the fresh eyes and experienced managerial hand of a three-star program executive officer.”

-ends-

Re: F-35 News

Enviado: Sex Mar 12, 2010 3:31 pm
por soultrain
Seeing The Elephant
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 3/12/2010 5:46 AM CST
There was an elephant in the room at the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the Joint Strike Fighter yesterday, and sometime this summer it's going to take a poo on Defense Secretary Robert Gates' office carpet.

Everyone acknowledged that the unit cost has gone up a lot - almost 20 per cent since 2007, as much as 90 per cent since the program started. That 90 per cent is not an exaggeration, and does not even include the inflated systems development and demonstration (SDD) cost.

Cost assessment and program evaluation director Christine Fox said that the average procurement unit cost (APUC) - the cost of production, including overheads and non-recurring production cost, divided by the number of aircraft - was estimated at just over $50 million in 2002 and is now estimated at $80-$95 million, all in base-year dollars (pages 4-5).

The Government Accountability Office gave the same numbers in then-year dollars - $69 million at program start and $112 million today (page 6). The latter figure, a 60+ per cent increase, corresponds to Fox's low-end estimate. At the high end, in today's money, the price tag for a real JSF, including the engine, could be over $130 million.

Compare $112-$130 million to the numbers bandied about by politicians in Europe. There's some good news - the number includes more costly F-35Bs and F-35Cs -- but the chances of an F-35A coming in anywhere south of $110 million are pretty slim.

But then there is the elephant.

The numbers from Fox and the GAO are based on the on-record JSF production plans, including 2443 aircraft for the Pentagon and 700 for the existing partners, and rising to rates of 200+ aircraft per year in 2015 and beyond. This would be realistic if the customers had 60-90 per cent more inflation-adjusted dollars, euros and kroner to spend on fighters today than they did in 2001.

But they don't, so it's not. Welcome to the death spiral.

The rates and total buy are going to decline and the unit costs will rise. Production capacity will be scaled back, and the program will stabilize at a lower rate and higher unit cost. The USAF fighter force will shrink, and some of the international partners may bail completely rather than get into fighter fleets numbering in the 20s and 30s.

Boeing's going to be out there preaching the virtues of the Super Hornet, with an APUC around $80 million. The Israelis, already wobbling because of the delays, will be taking a closer look at the F-15SE. Even Rafale and Typhoon start to look cost-competitive.

Sen John McCain was trying hard yesterday to get people to acknowledge the pachyderm's presence, including Cox and acting program office director Maj Gen CD Moore, who looked as happy as a rookie lieutenant caught in the weapons instructor's no-escape zone. But nobody wanted to go to the subject of production rates.

The problem is that, so far, nobody has the data to make an accurate estimate of where the numbers will end up.

Open questions include where the services set their priorities between now and 2010, and how much they have to spend (on more Super Hornets or life-extension programs) to compensate for JSF delays with IOCs in 2016. How much overrun can the international partners stand? Will Congress will put its foot down on concurrency, further raising costs and delaying FOC? Internally, too, the program will have to figure out unit costs at different production rates.

Some of this information will emerge as Ashton Carter's office completes its Nunn-McCurdy certification exercise and the "should cost" evaluation - so, by this summer, the customers should have some numbers that they can use in their budgets. And the math says that it's not going to look very pretty for JSF.

And let's not forget the F-22 supporters. A key plank in Gates' anti-F-22 platform was the idea that the F-35 was going to be far cheaper than the F-22, but yesterday the gap between the two aircraft became much narrower. Politically, the bad news is going to get a lot of play.

It all makes this report from Wednesday look like the Dewey Defeats Truman of aerospace market analysis.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest