Fórum Defesa Brasil

usskelvin escreveu:Olha, garanto que o dinheiro de Israel não vem nem de graça, nem a fundo perdido, e tb que é muito importante para os EUA manter essa relação comercial, claro, que em caso de um estress nas relações governamentais, a coisa pode dar uma diminuida, mas não vejo Israel como um estado vassalo ou escravo, vamos ver o que o Bibi vai fazer, eu espero que ele peite esse marginal do Obama.

Bibi? Obama marginal??? Amigo, ééé???

Sintra escreveu:

usskelvin escreveu:Israel já sofreu com essas bobagens democratas, buscou apoio em outros lugares e se necessário desenvolvem eles, numa destas eles compram a SAAB e fazem um Gripen JUDAH, bi-turbina e stealt, ou nem duvido, entrem no tal pak-fa, Israel, não conta com bois, mas sim com trabalho e competencia.

Claro, claro...
E já agora tem alguma ideia de onde é que vem o dinheiro que permite a um estado tão pequeno e com tão pouca população manter umas forças armadas capazes de fazer inveja à Grã Bretanha e à França?
É totalmente impossivel a Israel adquirir material de outro sitio qualquer que não os States...

Sintra, você esta correto, mas Israel pode continuar sendo fiél a política americana no Oriente Médio e continuar tendo benefícios mas adquirir caças de outro lugar.

Eles tb sabem pressionar. Eles podem ameaçar desenvolver um caça independente e os EUA podem facilitar.

Da Rússia eu duvido, mas se eles ameaçarem firmar parceria com a China para o desenvolvimento de um concorrente do F-35???

Mas reparem, Israel tem um repasse directo do orçamento de estado Norte Americano, ou seja, o dinheiro que usam para comprar armas é Americano. Acham que dá para comprar outra coisa?

Exato, jovem....

Uma PARTE do que é comprado é com dinheiro americano.

Normalmente caças. Mas Israel pode optar por adquirir misseis, armamentos, helicopteros, navios, etc. E adquirir caças com o seu PRÓPRIO orçamento.

É bem dificil acontecer, mas temos o Lavi com exemplo não tão antigo.

Claro que o dinheiro é doado sem interesse, apenas uma atitude altruísta....

Os EUA dão dinheiro que financia as suas industrias, o Lavi é um exemplo perfeito das consequências.

[[]]'s

Puerra caixeiro...você não tem pena dos engenheiros russos não né?

Reduzir o RCS de um Su-27???

soultrain escreveu:Mas reparem, Israel tem um repasse directo do orçamento de estado Norte Americano, ou seja, o dinheiro que usam para comprar armas é Americano. Acham que dá para comprar outra coisa?

Grandes financistas banqueiros dos EUA são de descendencia Judia...Judeus/Norte-Americanos, na Suíça também tem Judeu!!!!E em muitos organismos financeiros ao redor do mundo tem o dedo dos Judeus....não se enganem!!!!

Anderson TR escreveu:

soultrain escreveu:Mas reparem, Israel tem um repasse directo do orçamento de estado Norte Americano, ou seja, o dinheiro que usam para comprar armas é Americano. Acham que dá para comprar outra coisa?

Grandes financistas banqueiros dos EUA são de descendencia Judia...Judeus/Norte-Americanos, na Suíça também tem Judeu!!!!E em muitos organismos financeiros ao redor do mundo tem o dedo dos Judeus....não se enganem!!!!

Será? Eu sempre tratei esse assunto como lenda urbana, até porque ninguém me provou isso. Não que os judeus não tenham alguma coisa, mas mandar em tudo também não acho.

Ares - A Defense Technology Blog

Israel May Opt for Silent Eagle, if US Refuses Israeli Access to F-35 Computer
Posted by David Eshel at 5/16/2009 6:22 AM CDT

A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet, last week's edition of the Jerusalem Post revealed. Last year, Israel received approval from the Pentagon to purchase up to 75 aircraft in a deal that could reach close to $20 billion.

But the Americans are concerned that by allowing Israel to independently repair the computers, the Israel Air Force will get its hands on the classified technology that was used in making the plane.

Israel, on the other hand, has argued that due to its operational requirements it needs to have the ability to repair damaged or broken computer systems in "real time" and cannot wait for a computer system to be sent to the US for repairs in the middle of a war. Without full autonomy to the system, the aircraft could become worthless to the air force.

Due to the disagreements regarding the computer, as well as American opposition to the integration of Israeli systems into the plane and its overall soaring cost - now reaching $100 million - the Defense Ministry has recently asked Boeing for details on their new and advanced model of the F-15SE Eagle, which is claimed to have enhanced stealth capabilities, dubbed 'Silent Eagle,' a model at much lower cost, that the JSF.

Compared to other JSF rivals, the Silent Eagle offers significant advantages, including enhanced stealth design and internal weapons carriage, state-of-the-art flight controls, radar, and EW systems. Furthermore, unlike the F-35 the Silent Eagle is expected to be 'open' for customer enhancements and modifications, an obstacle that several potential JSF customers have stumbled upon in the past. Among the improvements integrated into the new fighter are coatings and treatments applied to the aircraft skin to reduce radar reflections and thermal loads.

According to Boeing, the Silent Eagle will be able to reach an approximate mission radius of 800 nautical miles (nm) on air/ground missions and 720 nm on combat air patrols (CAP), employing the RCS reduction kit. Baseline CFT equipped F-15SE can reach 1000 nm on ground attack and 900 nm on CAP. The Silent Eagle will be able to internally carry air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-9 and AIM-120 and air-to-ground weapons such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) and Small Diameter Bomb (SDB). Survivability improvements include a Digital Electronic Warfare System (DEWS) from BAE Systems designed specifically to work in full interoperability with wideband RF systems including the Raytheon Advanced Electronic Scanning Array (AESA) radar.

There is no clear decision as to Israel's option over the two aircraft under consideration. Both the F-35 and Silent Eagle can become potential acquisitions. One of the critical aspects, apart from the access to classified avionics, is the soaring cost, which under the present budgetary constraints and the financial crisis, could become dominant.

Bolovo escreveu:

usskelvin escreveu:Olha, garanto que o dinheiro de Israel não vem nem de graça, nem a fundo perdido, e tb que é muito importante para os EUA manter essa relação comercial, claro, que em caso de um estress nas relações governamentais, a coisa pode dar uma diminuida, mas não vejo Israel como um estado vassalo ou escravo, vamos ver o que o Bibi vai fazer, eu espero que ele peite esse marginal do Obama.

Bibi? Obama marginal??? Amigo, ééé???

Viva a democracia de um estado onde se pode saber dos crimes até mesmo de seu presidente, creio que não temos nada como isso http://www.obamacrimes.info/ em Cuba ou na grande Russia, ou no paraiso norte-coreano.

Santiago escreveu:Ares - A Defense Technology Blog

Israel May Opt for Silent Eagle, if US Refuses Israeli Access to F-35 Computer
Posted by David Eshel at 5/16/2009 6:22 AM CDT

A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet, last week's edition of the Jerusalem Post revealed. Last year, Israel received approval from the Pentagon to purchase up to 75 aircraft in a deal that could reach close to $20 billion.

But the Americans are concerned that by allowing Israel to independently repair the computers, the Israel Air Force will get its hands on the classified technology that was used in making the plane.

Israel, on the other hand, has argued that due to its operational requirements it needs to have the ability to repair damaged or broken computer systems in "real time" and cannot wait for a computer system to be sent to the US for repairs in the middle of a war. Without full autonomy to the system, the aircraft could become worthless to the air force.

Due to the disagreements regarding the computer, as well as American opposition to the integration of Israeli systems into the plane and its overall soaring cost - now reaching $100 million - the Defense Ministry has recently asked Boeing for details on their new and advanced model of the F-15SE Eagle, which is claimed to have enhanced stealth capabilities, dubbed 'Silent Eagle,' a model at much lower cost, that the JSF.

Compared to other JSF rivals, the Silent Eagle offers significant advantages, including enhanced stealth design and internal weapons carriage, state-of-the-art flight controls, radar, and EW systems. Furthermore, unlike the F-35 the Silent Eagle is expected to be 'open' for customer enhancements and modifications, an obstacle that several potential JSF customers have stumbled upon in the past. Among the improvements integrated into the new fighter are coatings and treatments applied to the aircraft skin to reduce radar reflections and thermal loads.

According to Boeing, the Silent Eagle will be able to reach an approximate mission radius of 800 nautical miles (nm) on air/ground missions and 720 nm on combat air patrols (CAP), employing the RCS reduction kit. Baseline CFT equipped F-15SE can reach 1000 nm on ground attack and 900 nm on CAP. The Silent Eagle will be able to internally carry air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-9 and AIM-120 and air-to-ground weapons such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) and Small Diameter Bomb (SDB). Survivability improvements include a Digital Electronic Warfare System (DEWS) from BAE Systems designed specifically to work in full interoperability with wideband RF systems including the Raytheon Advanced Electronic Scanning Array (AESA) radar.

There is no clear decision as to Israel's option over the two aircraft under consideration. Both the F-35 and Silent Eagle can become potential acquisitions. One of the critical aspects, apart from the access to classified avionics, is the soaring cost, which under the present budgetary constraints and the financial crisis, could become dominant.

As relacoes entre os paises sao bem mais intrincadas do que aparenta...


Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'
By Robert Hewson

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/syste ... _2_n.shtml


Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.

In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.


---------------------------------

Eh do Wikipedia, mas...


People's Republic of China – Israel relations

Military cooperation

Israel and China began extensive military cooperation as early as the 1980s, even though no formal diplomatic relations existed.[5][6][7][8] Some estimate that Israel sold arms worth USD 4 billion to China in this period.[7][5] China has looked to Israel for the arms and technology it wants but cannot acquire from both the United States and Russia. Israel has now become China's second-largest supplier of arms (following Russia).[5] China has purchased a wide array of military equipment and technology, including communications satellites.[5] The building of military cooperation and trade has softened China's historic anti-Israeli policy over Palestine and Middle East issues.[5] China has become a vital market for Israel's extensive military industries and arms manufacturers.[5] Israel has also limited its cooperation with the Republic of China (Taiwan) in order to foster closer ties with the People's Republic of China.[5] One of the top Generals in the Israeli Army, Eli Marom is of Chinese origin through his father.

Controversies

Israel's increasing defense cooperation with China has caused concern in the United States, which is the largest provider of military equipment to Israel. Owing to strategic rivalry and concerns over the security of Taiwan, the U.S. has pressured Israel against selling sophisticated U.S.-made equipment and technology to China.[8] Israel's cancelled the sale to China of the Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) in 2000 in wake of pressure from the U.S., which threatened to cut off USD 2.8 billion in yearly aid if the deal went through.[9] Israel's decision drew condemnation from China, which stated that the cancellation would hurt bilateral ties.[9][6] U.S. intelligence also suspects that the U.S.'s exports to Israel of the Patriot missiles and Lavi jet aircraft technology has been shared with China.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s ... _relations

Skyway escreveu:Puerra caixeiro...você não tem pena dos engenheiros russos não né?

Reduzir o RCS de um Su-27???

Hahahaha.... boa!
Pelas minhas contas... feitas com precisão milimétrica em meu PC XT, trazer o RCS do SU-27 para próximo do apresentado pelo F-22 não é difícil. Aliás, a Revell e a Hasegawa já fizeram isso nos anos 90. Basta fazer uma versão em escala 1:72!


[ ]´s

Adriano

usskelvin escreveu:

Bolovo escreveu: Bibi? Obama marginal??? Amigo, ééé???

Viva a democracia de um estado onde se pode saber dos crimes até mesmo de seu presidente, creio que não temos nada como isso http://www.obamacrimes.info/ em Cuba ou na grande Russia, ou no paraiso norte-coreano.

Que bobagem esse site.