PAK-FA engineering mockup accepted by MoD
Moderadores: Glauber Prestes, Conselho de Moderação
Se esse cara que escreveu o texto não tem acesso aos desenhos ou protótipo(e não tem mesmo), ele está nada mais nada menos que chutando bem longe, afinal, se a NPO não sabe, quem é ele para saber? E se é um chute, e é, todos aqui estão chutando com ele. Não seria mais lógico crer na fábrica dos motores do avião, que está participando do projeto, do que num cara que foi ludibriado por um desenhista polonês?(Nunca soube da Polônia fabricando MIG-29) Ora, se são esses os gênios, que afirmem com todas as letras que é mentira. Mas, é melhor colocar tudo na base dos "se", "talvez"... Se errar tá tudo bem, se acertar é o gênio da aeronáutica.
Eu não vi uma linha dele falando da impossibilidade técnica de ser este desenho. Não se falou em momento nenhum que a forma não é furtiva ou algo semelhante. Falou-se em tábuas de passar roupas, wikpedia(?) e etc. É esse o gênio que sabe mais que a NPO?
- Sintra
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Carlos Mathias escreveu::lol:
Se esse cara que escreveu o texto não tem acesso aos desenhos ou protótipo(e não tem mesmo), ele está nada mais nada menos que chutando bem longe, afinal, se a NPO não sabe, quem é ele para saber? E se é um chute, e é, todos aqui estão chutando com ele. Não seria mais lógico crer na fábrica dos motores do avião, que está participando do projeto, do que num cara que foi ludibriado por um desenhista polonês?(Nunca soube da Polônia fabricando MIG-29) Ora, se são esses os gênios, que afirmem com todas as letras que é mentira. Mas, é melhor colocar tudo na base dos "se", "talvez"... Se errar tá tudo bem, se acertar é o gênio da aeronáutica.
Eu não vi uma linha dele falando da impossibilidade técnica de ser este desenho. Não se falou em momento nenhum que a forma não é furtiva ou algo semelhante. Falou-se em tábuas de passar roupas, wikpedia(?) e etc. É esse o gênio que sabe mais que a NPO?
É o génio que me levou a acreditar no plasma "stealth" Russo... Aquele artigo de 2003 que eu coloquei acerca disso é dele, o tipo em 2003 teve acesso ao vivo a uma demonstração desse sistema por parte da Sukhoi, era o unico Norte Americano presente.
É um dos mais respeitados jornalistas na área de defesa a nivel mundial... Mas claro que ele pode estar enganado...
Abraços Carlos
gênio é o cara que consegue fazer um radar pegar 400km+ dentro de um avião, deve ter uma mina usina nuclear dentro do avião.
Nos EUA também tem, o radar do F-22 consegue isso. Aliás, recomendo a leitura completa do tópico "T-10BM, the definitive Flanker", lá pode-se ler coisas assim:
RLSU Irbis-E can locate and simultaneously track up to 30 aerial targets with the retention of the continuity of the survey of space (track while scan), ensure the simultaneous fire of two targets with two rockets with semi-active RGS and up to eight targets by eight rockets with active RGS, in such cases to four targets at the distance of more than 300 km. In the mode 'air-surface' the complex ensures the mapping of land and sea surfaces and the detection of ground targets in the modes of survey with real beam (low resolution) with the Doppler sharpening (medium resolution) and SAR mode (modes of high and superhigh resolution). Range of detection of aerial targets RCS 3 sq m in the head-on courses in RLSU Irbis-E comprises not less than 350-400 km, while in the overtaking courses - not less than 150 km (with the height of target 10 km and more). To detect 'stealthy' targets RCS 0.01sq m station can at the distances to 90 km. Resolution during the identification of dense multiple target (at a distance of 50 km) it comprises: on the distance - 50-100 m, on the velocity - 5 m/s and on the angular coordinates - 2,5~.
Being the logical development Bars, RLSU Irbis, thus, has considerably higher characteristics: the extended (more than doubled) zone the working of frequencies, the increased from 70 to 120 deg zone of detection and accompaniment of aerial targets along the azimuth, the considerably increased range, the improved jamming invulnerability, etc through these indices Irbis is located on the level of the most up-to-date foreign developments in this region, exceeding the majority of American and West European RLS with the passive and the active phased arrays and practically without being inferior to the most perfect system of this class - RLS AN/APG-77 of American fighters F-22.
Over-exaggerated advertisements?? perhaps, Nothing more than BS?? maybe. However, All of these stuffs that I mentioned above were from the manufacturers' and USAF / RAF's declaration, not from my personal imagination.
The declaration of Manufacturers and Air-Force:
USAF:
"With the help of AESA radar and NG data fusion / link technology, our F-22A and F-35 shall be a invincible and numerous AWACS fleet with stealthy capability and detection range of E-2C/E-3C class at least (or even better ~ I don't know if E-2C, or even E-3C nowadays can detect the target of RCS = 1 m2 class 200 km away. However, APG-77 can "track" this kind of target at the range more than 200 km away). Therefore, there's no need to develop and buy E-10 now."
Russian fighter's radar manufacturer:
"Our newest phase array radar (IRBIS-E) will have 20 Kw class maximal output (4 times of APG-71) and the similar detecting / tracking range performance as APG-77."
RAF / EADS / BAES:
"The CAPTOR-M now is able to track MIG-29 (RCS = 5m2) at the range more than 161 ~ 185 km away. It is very impressive for a traditional fighter's radar, however it is relatively shabby when comparing with the NG AESA radars such as APG-77, APG-81, and IRBIS-E. However, after incorporating AESA technology into CAPTOR formally in 2014 (CAPTOR-E), we shall be able to chase them up..........."
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Carlos Mathias escreveu:gênio é o cara que consegue fazer um radar pegar 400km+ dentro de um avião, deve ter uma mina usina nuclear dentro do avião.
Nos EUA também tem, o radar do F-22 consegue isso. Aliás, recomendo a leitura completa do tópico "T-10BM, the definitive Flanker", lá pode-se ler coisas assim:RLSU Irbis-E can locate and simultaneously track up to 30 aerial targets with the retention of the continuity of the survey of space (track while scan), ensure the simultaneous fire of two targets with two rockets with semi-active RGS and up to eight targets by eight rockets with active RGS, in such cases to four targets at the distance of more than 300 km. In the mode 'air-surface' the complex ensures the mapping of land and sea surfaces and the detection of ground targets in the modes of survey with real beam (low resolution) with the Doppler sharpening (medium resolution) and SAR mode (modes of high and superhigh resolution). Range of detection of aerial targets RCS 3 sq m in the head-on courses in RLSU Irbis-E comprises not less than 350-400 km, while in the overtaking courses - not less than 150 km (with the height of target 10 km and more). To detect 'stealthy' targets RCS 0.01sq m station can at the distances to 90 km. Resolution during the identification of dense multiple target (at a distance of 50 km) it comprises: on the distance - 50-100 m, on the velocity - 5 m/s and on the angular coordinates - 2,5~.
Being the logical development Bars, RLSU Irbis, thus, has considerably higher characteristics: the extended (more than doubled) zone the working of frequencies, the increased from 70 to 120 deg zone of detection and accompaniment of aerial targets along the azimuth, the considerably increased range, the improved jamming invulnerability, etc through these indices Irbis is located on the level of the most up-to-date foreign developments in this region, exceeding the majority of American and West European RLS with the passive and the active phased arrays and practically without being inferior to the most perfect system of this class - RLS AN/APG-77 of American fighters F-22.
Over-exaggerated advertisements?? perhaps, Nothing more than BS?? maybe. However, All of these stuffs that I mentioned above were from the manufacturers' and USAF / RAF's declaration, not from my personal imagination.
The declaration of Manufacturers and Air-Force:
USAF:
"With the help of AESA radar and NG data fusion / link technology, our F-22A and F-35 shall be a invincible and numerous AWACS fleet with stealthy capability and detection range of E-2C/E-3C class at least (or even better ~ I don't know if E-2C, or even E-3C nowadays can detect the target of RCS = 1 m2 class 200 km away. However, APG-77 can "track" this kind of target at the range more than 200 km away). Therefore, there's no need to develop and buy E-10 now."
Russian fighter's radar manufacturer:
"Our newest phase array radar (IRBIS-E) will have 20 Kw class maximal output (4 times of APG-71) and the similar detecting / tracking range performance as APG-77."
RAF / EADS / BAES:
"The CAPTOR-M now is able to track MIG-29 (RCS = 5m2) at the range more than 161 ~ 185 km away. It is very impressive for a traditional fighter's radar, however it is relatively shabby when comparing with the NG AESA radars such as APG-77, APG-81, and IRBIS-E. However, after incorporating AESA technology into CAPTOR formally in 2014 (CAPTOR-E), we shall be able to chase them up..........."
Hehehehe...
A aviação imita a vida ... os caras vão tomar umas cervejas e depois de umas rodadas as histórias começam e daí cada um saiu com uma mulher melhor do que a do outro...
Eu vejo esses números e para mim isso tudo faz parte do jogo de super-trunfo que o Marketing cria (afinal de contas tem que vender esses troços ).
A minha lógica é bem simples... uma aeronave como o Su ou mesmo o F-22 estando sobre o Aeroporto Santos Dummont no Rio de Janeiro e detectando uma aeronave decolando de Guarulhos SP com a Serra das Araras e o escambau no meio do caminho é o indicativo de que deveríamos abandonar essa história de Sindacta e controle de tráfego aéreo (aproveitando a confusão) e colocar uns radar de SU ou do F-22 para tomar conta do espaço aéreo Brasileiro!!!
Além disso... esse investimento todo que esse montão de países faz em AEW&C aonde cada dia surgem mais e mais aeronaves também deveria ser deixado de lado...
Os caras que colocam um radar em cima de um Boeing ou um ERJ ou Aquele Israelense ou mesmo os próprios russos deveriam tomar vergonha na cara e aprender a miniaturizar com os caras que constroem radar de caças!!!!
Alguém não está falando a verdade...
Quem será?
[]s
CB_lima
CB_Lima = Carlos Lima
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cb_lima escreveu:Alguém não está falando a verdade...
Quem será?
[]s
CB_lima
VC fez a pergunta que eu estou me fazendo.
CONFESSO que me joguei em desabalada carreira a obter dados de todo tipo de fontes, entre elas as que vcs (nobres desocubados ehaheah) postam aqui.
e por enquanto, a maior certeza que tenho é que TEM MUITA, MAS MUITA GENTE NUM K.O. VIOLENTO.
A minha lógica é bem simples... uma aeronave como o Su ou mesmo o F-22 estando sobre o Aeroporto Santos Dummont no Rio de Janeiro e detectando uma aeronave decolando de Guarulhos SP com a Serra das Araras e o escambau no meio do caminho é o indicativo de que deveríamos abandonar essa história de Sindacta e controle de tráfego aéreo (aproveitando a confusão) e colocar uns radar de SU ou do F-22 para tomar conta do espaço aéreo Brasileiro!!! Very Happy Wink Cool
Me perdoe a franqueza, mas a tua lógica tá é errada. Quantos radares do CINDACTA estão posicionados à mais de 10.000m de altitude? Horizonte radar...lembra? Então? Mas tem mais, quantos radares de caça você conheçe com varredura de 360º ? E qual a capacidade de processamento de um ERIEYE e de um radar de caça? O IRBIS-E monitora 30 alvos (ou 60 nas versões mais adiante). Você tem idéia da quantidade de alvos que um AWACS pode monitorar? (Um Hawkeye, pequenino, monitora 600 alvos simultanemente) Quantos computadores cabem num 707 ou R-99 e quantos cabem dentro de um caça? Quem tem mais capacidade de processamento, as dezenas de computadores nos 707 ou o único do caça?
Além disso... esse investimento todo que esse montão de países faz em AEW&C aonde cada dia surgem mais e mais aeronaves também deveria ser deixado de lado...
Depois do exposto acima, você ainda mantém essa afirmação?
Os caras que colocam um radar em cima de um Boeing ou um ERJ ou Aquele Israelense ou mesmo os próprios russos deveriam tomar vergonha na cara e aprender a miniaturizar com os caras que constroem radar de caças!!!!
São os mesmos...
Alguém não está falando a verdade...
Ou alguém precisa pesquisar mais...
Quem será?
Pois é, quem será?
- Sintra
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Sintra escreveu:Pepê Rezende escreveu:Sintra escreveu:E só para juntar aos comentários do Bill Sweetman, é importante notar que no mesmissimo site da NPO Saturn esteve uma outra imagem do PAK FA ao mesmo tempo que esta, mas era completamente diferente...
Era um desenho do Josef Gatial, um excelente artista plástico Checo... Mas que desconhece o aspecto do PAK FA
Engraçado. Quando a Snecma colocava uma concepção artística do Rafale ninguém dizia que era falsa. O mesmo com os gabricantes de motores para o F-22 e F-23. A Saturn irá fabricar os motores do PAK-FA. Se há alguém que sabe como será é ela.
Pepê
PS: NUNCA vi desenho do genial Gatial lá,
Eu vi, já lá não está...
E também vi as concepções artisticas da Dassault nos anos 80 antes do primeiro prototipo ser mostrado ao publico. Eram diferentes
Epá, os tipos limitaram-se a mudar a imagem do Gatial de página
Está aqui: http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/?pid=25
ps- O original da imagem que estamos a discutir parece que veio do Paralay à cerca de um ano atrás e ele achou-a num site... Indiano...
Abraços
- Carlos Lima
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Carlos Mathias escreveu:A minha lógica é bem simples... uma aeronave como o Su ou mesmo o F-22 estando sobre o Aeroporto Santos Dummont no Rio de Janeiro e detectando uma aeronave decolando de Guarulhos SP com a Serra das Araras e o escambau no meio do caminho é o indicativo de que deveríamos abandonar essa história de Sindacta e controle de tráfego aéreo (aproveitando a confusão) e colocar uns radar de SU ou do F-22 para tomar conta do espaço aéreo Brasileiro!!! Very Happy Wink Cool
Me perdoe a franqueza, mas a tua lógica tá é errada. Quantos radares do CINDACTA estão posicionados à mais de 10.000m de altitude? Horizonte radar...lembra? Então? Mas tem mais, quantos radares de caça você conheçe com varredura de 360º ? E qual a capacidade de processamento de um ERIEYE e de um radar de caça? O IRBIS-E monitora 30 alvos (ou 60 nas versões mais adiante). Você tem idéia da quantidade de alvos que um AWACS pode monitorar? (Um Hawkeye, pequenino, monitora 600 alvos simultanemente) Quantos computadores cabem num 707 ou R-99 e quantos cabem dentro de um caça? Quem tem mais capacidade de processamento, as dezenas de computadores nos 707 ou o único do caça?Além disso... esse investimento todo que esse montão de países faz em AEW&C aonde cada dia surgem mais e mais aeronaves também deveria ser deixado de lado...
Depois do exposto acima, você ainda mantém essa afirmação?Os caras que colocam um radar em cima de um Boeing ou um ERJ ou Aquele Israelense ou mesmo os próprios russos deveriam tomar vergonha na cara e aprender a miniaturizar com os caras que constroem radar de caças!!!!
São os mesmos...Alguém não está falando a verdade...
Ou alguém precisa pesquisar mais...Quem será?
Pois é, quem será?
Tudo o que você está falando faz sentido, não há como discordar e é claro que você também percebeu que o meu post possui uma série enorme de absurdos descabidos tanto quanto as propagandas que vemos por aí.
(a idéia foi representar inclusive o que na própria discussão sobre o T-10, a qual você se referiu, as pessoas debatendo mencionavam o termo "BS" - Bull Shit - como uma provável explicação para os números utilizados tanto pelos russos quanto americanos e ingleses ou seja todos falando besteira).
Uma analogia é que hoje em dia os caças mais modernos são mais parecidos com submarinos pois as aeronaves mais modernas concentram o seu poder de interceptação em sensores passivos e transmissão de posicionamento por intermédio de outros meios como Datalink e o mínimo possível com o uso de sensores ativos.
O próprio Raptor possui o ALR-194 (se não me engano esse é o nome) que é o coração da aeronave e se trata de uma combinação absurda de sensores de busca passivos para em conjunto com o Stealth realizar o "Sillent Kill"'.
Colocar uma aeronave de caça como essa tentando encontrar alvos a 400km de distância e até 60 deles ao mesmo tempo é disperdício... isso sim! Pois afinal de contas quantas dessas aeronaves você vai conseguir abater? A partir de qual distância?
Os atuais rwr's saberão quem é você quase que ao mesmo tempo que você ligar o seu radar...
Se é para ligar o radar é para matar, nada de ficar passeando e escaneando o céu! Era assim antes e hoje em dia isso é mais importante ainda.
Mas tentando ser mais construtivo... em um cenário de baixa/média (e olhe lá) intensidade de conflito como na Am. do Sul ou mesmo Latina eu questiono a validade de um sistema de defesa aérea integrada que possua ao mesmo tempo um AEW&C que consiga monitorar 300/600 alvos a mais ou menos uns 500km de distância atuando em conjunto com um caça que consegue monitorar "60" alvos voando a 400km de distância.
No nosso contexto acho pior ainda pois qual seria a validade de um caça com o radar que consegue monitorar 60 alvos a 400 km de distância na América Latina? Aonde a maioria das F Aéreas mal possuem 60 caças?
Um AEW eu entendo pois esse tipo de aeronave faz muitas outras tarefas.
Radares de longo alcance são para aeronaves especializadas com o perfil de repassar alvos para que o maior número de Sillent Kills sejam realizados!
Até a FAB aprendeu isso na Cruzex!
No fim das contas os fabricantes fazem o trabalho deles e quando em um cenário controlado conseguem uma façanha dessa isso passa a ser o número, mas na hora da verdade com pouca utilidade prática.
(isso é válido para americanos, franceses, russos, etc)
Em um GOLF da vida o Velocimetro diz que ele chega até 240KM/H... será que é verdade? Será que em uma rodovia normal dá para "sentar a mamona" e colocar 240KM/H?
Como eu disse antes... acho que alguém não está dizendo a verdade
Eu só queria chamar a atenção que páginas e páginas de super-trunfo talvez não ajudem muito!... Só isso... sem ofender ninguém!
[]s
CB_Lima
CB_Lima = Carlos Lima
Colocar uma aeronave de caça como essa tentando encontrar alvos a 400km de distância e até 60 deles ao mesmo tempo é disperdício... isso sim! Pois afinal de contas quantas dessas aeronaves você vai conseguir abater? A partir de qual distância?
Desculpe pular o começo de seu post, mas vamos lá. Você deve ter lido naquele tópico que eu tenho recomendado ao povo aqui que, assim como o F-22, o SU-35BM pode retransmitir suas informações, colhidas via radar, datalink, IRST e etc para mais outros 18 caças, servindo como mini AWACS. Isso é feito pelo Gripen e mais anteriormente pelos iranianos com os F-14 de maneira mais simples, e é tido como uma vantagem, sendo assim, deve ser também para outros caças com radares mais potentes e maior capacidade de processamento de informações. Deve-se considerar também que numa guerra hoje, os valiosíssimos AWACS são alvos prioritários, ou que num ação sobre território inimigo, seria loucura colocar um AWACS exposto à caça inimiga, mesmo que com mínima chance de ser abatido. Ou, considerar também que nem todos os lugares terão cobertura radar de terra, ou que essa infraestrututa será prontamente destruída nos primeiros movimentos da guerra. Resumindo, um caça pesado com um poderoso radar pode operar independentemente , quando necessário. Isso também não significa que os radares serão ligados sempre e na potência máxima, LPI e etc... estão lá prá isso.
Os atuais rwr's saberão quem é você quase que ao mesmo tempo que você ligar o seu radar...
E... Ou foge, ou encara e vai ser pego muito antes de qualquer arma poder ser lançada, ainda tendo sua posição mostrada para mais 18 caças, todos com seus radares devidamente desligados. Assim, se o piloto olhar seu RWR e inteligentemente usá-lo para aproximar-se do emissor, estará caindo uma armadilha com uma isca e até dezoito caçadores. Ou ele liga seu radar e denuncia a sua posição, apesar de quê isso será sabido à uns 350km de distância , ligue ou não seu radar.
F-5M funciona contra M-2000C, contra um caça pesado e um radar poderoso a conversa é muito mais complicada.
Mas tentando ser mais construtivo... em um cenário de baixa/média (e olhe lá) intensidade de conflito como na Am. do Sul ou mesmo Latina eu questiono a validade de um sistema de defesa aérea integrada que possua ao mesmo tempo um AEW&C que consiga monitorar 300/600 alvos a mais ou menos uns 500km de distância atuando em conjunto com um caça que consegue monitorar "60" alvos voando a 400km de distância.
Os R-99 são alvos e não podem estar em todos os lugares ao mesmo tempo, nem todos no ar ao mesmo tempo. Uma hora, os radares dos caças vão ser ligados. Mas, como disse, o caça não precisa ligar seu radar se tem um AWACS, mas se esse tiver uma pane ou for abatido, ele(o caça) pode resolver sozinho ao invéz de ter de retornar, ou atuar como cobertura radar de terra e limitar seu uso a áreas cobertas. Se fossem desnecessários radares cada vez melhores, o F-22 teria um rélez radar de F-16.
No nosso contexto acho pior ainda pois qual seria a validade de um caça com o radar que consegue monitorar 60 alvos a 400 km de distância na América Latina? Confused Aonde a maioria das F Aéreas mal possuem 60 caças?
60 alvos não significam 60 aviões inimigos, significam 60 aviões na área, amigos e inimigos, que precisam ser identificados e qualificados conforme a escala de ameaças e prioridades.
Um AEW eu entendo pois esse tipo de aeronave faz muitas outras tarefas.
Mas não podem estar em todos os lugares ao mesmo tempo, nem se expor em demasia. Lembre-se, os EUA colocam seus AWACS onde têm absoluta superioridade aérea, justamente para não arriscá-los.
Radares de longo alcance são para aeronaves especializadas com o perfil de repassar alvos para que o maior número de Sillent Kills sejam realizados!
Até a FAB aprendeu isso na Cruzex!
Pois é, talvez seja por isso que ela quer um caça pesado, ou pelo menos melhor que o mosquito. Mais ainda, ela deve saber que não dá prá ter sempre um AWACS no ar em todos os lugares. Ou que um ataque à base dos R-99 pode quebrar suas pernas, e etc, etc, etc.
No fim das contas os fabricantes fazem o trabalho deles e quando em um cenário controlado conseguem uma façanha dessa isso passa a ser o número, mas na hora da verdade com pouca utilidade prática.
Que dirá os iranianos e seus F-14...
Em um GOLF da vida o Velocimetro diz que ele chega até 240KM/H... será que é verdade? Será que em uma rodovia normal dá para "sentar a mamona" e colocar 240KM/H?
Eu vejo por outro prisma. Reserva de potência. Se você pode ir prá guerra com 100 cartuchos, porque você iria com 10? Ah, mas tem um cara comigo que atira bem...É, mas esse cara vai estar sempre lá? Vai viver e sobreviver aos combates? E mais importante, devo colocar minha vida completamente na dependência dele?
Como eu disse antes... acho que alguém não está dizendo a verdade
Provavelmente, mas se todos mentem e eu posso escolher o que mente prá melhor...
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5th generation fighters: India, Russia to ink pact
Friday October 12 2007 01:14 IST
Express News Service
NEW DELHI: India and Russia will sign a pact to jointly develop an advanced fifth generation fighter aircraft during Defence Minister A.K.Antony’s Moscow visit next week.
While negotiations on the project have been on for several years, India announced its intent to go in for Sukhoi’s PAK-FA fighter earlier this year. Both the sides have since been busy with technical negotiations to prepare a formal draft on the deal.
“An (inter governmental) pact will be signed during the visit but price negotiations and Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) issues will be sorted out at a later stage,” a Defence Ministry official said.
Antony is scheduled to visit Moscow from October 19 for the Indo-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation.
The multi-billion-dollar deal will be the largest joint development programme in the military sphere between the two countries.
India is looking for a next generation stealth fighter to match and exceed the capabilities of F 22 Raptor – already in service with the USA – and the JSF 3 – being jointly developed by the US and the UK.
In January, Russia promised that a prototype of the PAK-FA would take its first flight in early 2009. However, the IAF believes it will take close to a decade before the first fighter would be ready for induction.
Air Chief F H Major confirmed that the IAF has finalised the technical requirements of the desired fifth generation aircraft.
“The air staff requirements for the fifth generation fighters have been made. It will take five years for development and it will be 8-10 years before the first fighter takes to the skies,” he said.
While the Sukhoi Design Bureau has already finalised the basic design and features of the aircraft, India is hoping to contribute to the programme and gain some valuable expertise for its DRDO scientists.
The PAK-FA is expected to have advanced stealth features, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, thrust vectoring for increased manoeuvrability and a supercruise mode to fly at supersonic speed without using afterburners.
The latest fighter in IAF’s inventory — the SU 30 MKI — lags far behind in stealth and beyond visual range fighting capabilities to the American F-22.
Antony will also be negotiating to acquire 350 more T-90 S tanks for the Army. India has already acquired 310 such tanks.
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEH20071011145318&Page=H&Headline=5th+generation+fighters%3A+India%2C+Russia+to+ink+pact&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=0
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Although the first vice premier, Sergey Ivanov, was asserting: they were nearly the end of the experimental design work on the creation of the airplane, the developmental firm, the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, was confirming readiness for first flight of the prototype at the end of 2008.
Composites and high technology products are used widely in the future tactical aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA), which they call more often a fifth generation flight vehicle. It is recognized as a priority by the state arms program to 2015. Its fate is to be Russia�s basic air force tactical airplane.
In a discussion of the airplane of the future�s appearance, the emphasis is being made literally on each trifle (if there are such things in aviation in general), besides one � with which engine will the PAK FA fly. It has not been resolved through today which engine to place on it or to which enterprise to award this delicate operation.
Until the adoption of federal law number 94-F3 of 21 June 2005, which regulated the allocation of orders, OAO NPO Saturn was the lead developer of the aircraft engine. The enterprise did a lot for defining the appearance of the future engine � it performed the pre-draft stage of development and defined the primary �break-through� and �critical� technologies, the development of which is required before the start of experimental design work on the aircraft engine. The results of this work have been discussed by aeronautical science specialists, the developers of the fifth generation airplane and representatives of the defense ministry. They all came to a singular conclusion: It is not possible to create such a complex and high tech product as a fifth generation aircraft engine with the required characteristics by the efforts of on Russian enterprise. Therefore, it is necessary to create a pool of Russian motor builders.
In March 2007, the defense ministry�s directorate of orders and deliveries of aviation equipment and armament announced the private competition �Development of a Future Turbofan Engine with Afterburner for Article I-21� for the performance of experimental design work (OKR). Having considered that a competition of finished articles for the country is difficult financially, and even the periods for creation of something new will be drawn out, according to the competition�s conditions they decided to determine the winner in accordance with a bundle of documents. A competing enterprise was supposed to present an engineering report which contained the engineering concept of the future engine being proposed, indicate the skilled personnel and characterize the manufacturing and engineering base. However, to make an objective selection of a winner based only on paper proposals for which a wide-scale state project is extremely risky.
There are very painful questions today for the military industrial commission and the customers from the air force, on which the fate of the fifth generation aircraft engine depends on the answer. The main one of them is which of the enterprises has the best results in the development of engines or its individual elements and would be able to be the lead developer of a fifth generation engine, while having headed a pool and the cooperation of the aircraft builders? The real picture today is: FGUP MMPP Salyut � owing to its own funds and OAO NPO Saturn � with essential financing from the state budget � has been performing the upgrade of Russia�s main engine for heavy fighter aircraft, the AL-31F, in recent years. Each of these companies is going its own way, perfecting prototypes of the fifth generation engine�s elements during the upgrade.
Saturn has put forth an ambitious task to create the article 117 power plant immediately in 2 � 3 years which would become one of the fifth generation engine�s prototypes and provide a thrust of 15 � 15.5 tonnes. Let us recall that the thrust of the series built AL-31F is 12.5 tonnes. Salyut chose the tactic of developing a number of sequential engine upgrades. Today this is the AL-31FM1 with a thrust of 13.5 tonnes and increase service life � state tests already have been passed and series production begun. There is the AL-31FM2 modification in the test bench stage with a thrust of 14 tonnes. The design appearance of the next modification � the AL-31FM3 provides for a thrust increase even now to 15.5 tonnes with a specific weight of 0.09 kilograms per kilogram of power. The dimensions remain the same as the basic AL-31F engine, which allows leaving the airplane�s dimensions and structural frame unchanged. The arrangement will maintain a number of design and engineering solutions which will allow lowering the labor of assembling the engine, decreasing its weight and increasing service life and reliability. As a result, the AL-31FM3 in it parameters will come close to the requirements of the fifth generation engine. Today part of the AL-31FM3 components are in the autonomous finishing stage, part are undergoing bench tests, and design work is taking place on the high pressure compressor.
At the same time, without the attraction of budgetary funds, Salyut together with the leading institutes, design bureaus, enterprises of industry and the scientific research foundations of the defense ministry is forming a scientific and technical reserve for the fifth generation engine. Bench tests of the turbine and combustion chamber have taken place within the framework of this work. Salyut is mastering critical technologies which performing scientific research and experimental design work in several directions simultaneously. All this work fully may be assumed a development of the future engine.
It is difficult for the military industrial and competition commissions under these conditions, and perhaps, even impossible to adopt a decision about the lead developer of the fifth generation engine. It is useful to look at how in such cases they resolve the question in other aviation powers. The amount of state funds allocated there is relatively small there in the first stage of the realization of a project. When there are equivalent aspirants for winning a competition, they declare a preliminary competition of prototypes and demonstrators. Financial and technical risks are minimized in this way. Russia also might be able to go in such a way.
FGUP MMPP Salyut is proposing this variant in particular as significantly more realistic. Especially since this stage with a demonstrator is provided for in a draft state contract for the fulfillment of experimental design work. It is assumed with level state budgetary financing to task NPO Saturn and FGUP MMPP Salyut in the creation of a demonstrator prototype of the fifth generation engine by the end of 2008. Changes in the technical requirements for the engine can be introduced at the demonstration stage. Then select the lead developer according to the practical results. And he ((the developer)) should be able to use the best achievements of the competitor, producing real cooperation among the domestic motor builders.
An error in the choice is fraught with consequences, inasmuch as some stagnation in Russian aircraft engine building is obvious even without it. The AL-31 was adopted into the inventory (on the Su-27) 22 years ago. Work on the AL-41 was begun at the end of the �80s of the last century and there and then stopped. Since then, a new engine has not appeared. In order not to lose even the markets she has, Russia needs a break-through engine, which is distinguished in principle from those she has today, inasmuch as the life of the existing engines upgrade is coming to an end.
A new engine, in the opinion of specialists, should have 2 � 3 times greater service life, and this is 2,000 � 5,000 hours, a significantly lower fuel consumption and more modest expenses for usage. And for this new technologies and materials are needed.
Work on the creation of a power plant for the PAK FA has stopped today at Saturn in connection with the lack of budgetary financing, Salyut alone is continuing work � the engine builders are awaiting the results of the tender which was announced a few days ago by the military industrial commission attached to the government of Russia. The question about the degree of state participation in the creation of the power plant also will be resolved,
Meanwhile, the West has pulled far ahead with the EJ-20 engines for the Eurofighter, the M-88-3 for the Mirage and, finally, with the F119-PW-100, which has been on the American fifth generation F-22 for more than 5 years already. By the way, in the U.S.A., a decision on military engines is adopted based on the results of a competition of a program for the creation of a demonstrator engine.
Source: 19.07.07, Vremya Novostey, Correspondent: Nikolay Poroskov
http://forum.warfare.ru/index.php?showtopic=427&st=120
Although the first vice premier, Sergey Ivanov, was asserting: they were nearly the end of the experimental design work on the creation of the airplane, the developmental firm, the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, was confirming readiness for first flight of the prototype at the end of 2008.
Composites and high technology products are used widely in the future tactical aviation aircraft complex (PAK FA), which they call more often a fifth generation flight vehicle. It is recognized as a priority by the state arms program to 2015. Its fate is to be Russia�s basic air force tactical airplane.
In a discussion of the airplane of the future�s appearance, the emphasis is being made literally on each trifle (if there are such things in aviation in general), besides one � with which engine will the PAK FA fly. It has not been resolved through today which engine to place on it or to which enterprise to award this delicate operation.
Until the adoption of federal law number 94-F3 of 21 June 2005, which regulated the allocation of orders, OAO NPO Saturn was the lead developer of the aircraft engine. The enterprise did a lot for defining the appearance of the future engine � it performed the pre-draft stage of development and defined the primary �break-through� and �critical� technologies, the development of which is required before the start of experimental design work on the aircraft engine. The results of this work have been discussed by aeronautical science specialists, the developers of the fifth generation airplane and representatives of the defense ministry. They all came to a singular conclusion: It is not possible to create such a complex and high tech product as a fifth generation aircraft engine with the required characteristics by the efforts of on Russian enterprise. Therefore, it is necessary to create a pool of Russian motor builders.
In March 2007, the defense ministry�s directorate of orders and deliveries of aviation equipment and armament announced the private competition �Development of a Future Turbofan Engine with Afterburner for Article I-21� for the performance of experimental design work (OKR). Having considered that a competition of finished articles for the country is difficult financially, and even the periods for creation of something new will be drawn out, according to the competition�s conditions they decided to determine the winner in accordance with a bundle of documents. A competing enterprise was supposed to present an engineering report which contained the engineering concept of the future engine being proposed, indicate the skilled personnel and characterize the manufacturing and engineering base. However, to make an objective selection of a winner based only on paper proposals for which a wide-scale state project is extremely risky.
There are very painful questions today for the military industrial commission and the customers from the air force, on which the fate of the fifth generation aircraft engine depends on the answer. The main one of them is which of the enterprises has the best results in the development of engines or its individual elements and would be able to be the lead developer of a fifth generation engine, while having headed a pool and the cooperation of the aircraft builders? The real picture today is: FGUP MMPP Salyut � owing to its own funds and OAO NPO Saturn � with essential financing from the state budget � has been performing the upgrade of Russia�s main engine for heavy fighter aircraft, the AL-31F, in recent years. Each of these companies is going its own way, perfecting prototypes of the fifth generation engine�s elements during the upgrade.
Saturn has put forth an ambitious task to create the article 117 power plant immediately in 2 � 3 years which would become one of the fifth generation engine�s prototypes and provide a thrust of 15 � 15.5 tonnes. Let us recall that the thrust of the series built AL-31F is 12.5 tonnes. Salyut chose the tactic of developing a number of sequential engine upgrades. Today this is the AL-31FM1 with a thrust of 13.5 tonnes and increase service life � state tests already have been passed and series production begun. There is the AL-31FM2 modification in the test bench stage with a thrust of 14 tonnes. The design appearance of the next modification � the AL-31FM3 provides for a thrust increase even now to 15.5 tonnes with a specific weight of 0.09 kilograms per kilogram of power. The dimensions remain the same as the basic AL-31F engine, which allows leaving the airplane�s dimensions and structural frame unchanged. The arrangement will maintain a number of design and engineering solutions which will allow lowering the labor of assembling the engine, decreasing its weight and increasing service life and reliability. As a result, the AL-31FM3 in it parameters will come close to the requirements of the fifth generation engine. Today part of the AL-31FM3 components are in the autonomous finishing stage, part are undergoing bench tests, and design work is taking place on the high pressure compressor.
At the same time, without the attraction of budgetary funds, Salyut together with the leading institutes, design bureaus, enterprises of industry and the scientific research foundations of the defense ministry is forming a scientific and technical reserve for the fifth generation engine. Bench tests of the turbine and combustion chamber have taken place within the framework of this work. Salyut is mastering critical technologies which performing scientific research and experimental design work in several directions simultaneously. All this work fully may be assumed a development of the future engine.
It is difficult for the military industrial and competition commissions under these conditions, and perhaps, even impossible to adopt a decision about the lead developer of the fifth generation engine. It is useful to look at how in such cases they resolve the question in other aviation powers. The amount of state funds allocated there is relatively small there in the first stage of the realization of a project. When there are equivalent aspirants for winning a competition, they declare a preliminary competition of prototypes and demonstrators. Financial and technical risks are minimized in this way. Russia also might be able to go in such a way.
FGUP MMPP Salyut is proposing this variant in particular as significantly more realistic. Especially since this stage with a demonstrator is provided for in a draft state contract for the fulfillment of experimental design work. It is assumed with level state budgetary financing to task NPO Saturn and FGUP MMPP Salyut in the creation of a demonstrator prototype of the fifth generation engine by the end of 2008. Changes in the technical requirements for the engine can be introduced at the demonstration stage. Then select the lead developer according to the practical results. And he ((the developer)) should be able to use the best achievements of the competitor, producing real cooperation among the domestic motor builders.
An error in the choice is fraught with consequences, inasmuch as some stagnation in Russian aircraft engine building is obvious even without it. The AL-31 was adopted into the inventory (on the Su-27) 22 years ago. Work on the AL-41 was begun at the end of the �80s of the last century and there and then stopped. Since then, a new engine has not appeared. In order not to lose even the markets she has, Russia needs a break-through engine, which is distinguished in principle from those she has today, inasmuch as the life of the existing engines upgrade is coming to an end.
A new engine, in the opinion of specialists, should have 2 � 3 times greater service life, and this is 2,000 � 5,000 hours, a significantly lower fuel consumption and more modest expenses for usage. And for this new technologies and materials are needed.
Work on the creation of a power plant for the PAK FA has stopped today at Saturn in connection with the lack of budgetary financing, Salyut alone is continuing work � the engine builders are awaiting the results of the tender which was announced a few days ago by the military industrial commission attached to the government of Russia. The question about the degree of state participation in the creation of the power plant also will be resolved,
Meanwhile, the West has pulled far ahead with the EJ-20 engines for the Eurofighter, the M-88-3 for the Mirage and, finally, with the F119-PW-100, which has been on the American fifth generation F-22 for more than 5 years already. By the way, in the U.S.A., a decision on military engines is adopted based on the results of a competition of a program for the creation of a demonstrator engine.
Source: 19.07.07, Vremya Novostey, Correspondent: Nikolay Poroskov
http://forum.warfare.ru/index.php?showtopic=427&st=120
India plans to fund Russia in order to counter F/A-22 Raptor
Tariq Iqbal | Oct 17, 2007, 11:04
Indian Defence Minister, AK Antony is likely to ink a deal on his visit to Russia for the development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft.
Indian government plans to spend $5 billion on such a project to counter the production of a 5th generation fighter aircrafts in the United States Air Force, F/A-22 Raptor and Joint Strike Fighter.
Such a cooperation will enhance military ties with Russia which still stands today since the days of the communist Soviet Union.
AK Antony will visit Moscow to attend the Indo-Russia inter-government commission on military technical cooperation.
India preferred the Sukhoi's PAK-FA, 5th generation fighter earlier this year, which came after years of consultation and discussions over the issue to enjoy air supremacy throughout the world.
It is expected that both sides will firm up a formal declaration regarding the deal during the defence minister's visit.
"An inter-governmental pact will be signed during the visit, though price negotiations and intellectual property right issues will be sorted out at a later stage", an Indian defense official said.
If the deal is inked, the deal will be the largest multi-billion-dollar military deal between the two countries for the development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft which will guarantee air supremacy a long with the already highly capable fighter aircrafts, who already posses significant advantage against American, French, Chinese and European fighter aircrafts.
India and Russia both are looking for a next generation stealth fighter which would adequately match, if not exceed the capabilities of the US Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor, which is already in service, as well as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Lightning, being jointly developed by the United States and the United Kingdom.
Meanwhile air force chief, Air Chief Marshal FH Major has confirmed that the IAF has finalized the technical requirements for the fifth generation aircraft.
"The air staff requirements for the fifth generation fighters have been made. It will take five years for development and it will be 8-10 years before the first fighter takes to the skies," he said.
India plans to contribute to the 5th generation fighter aircraft pro-gramme and gain some valuable expertise for its own defence research and development establishments who struggle to meet the requirements of its air force for a light combat aircraft, LCA.
Sukhoi Design Bureau has already finalized the basic design and features of the aircraft. The PAK-FA is expected to have advanced stealth features, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, thrust vectoring for increased maneuverability and a super-cruise mode to fly at supersonic speed without using afterburners.
According to the Russian defense officials, a prototype of the PAK-FA would make its first flight in early 2009 marking a near era for both air forces of the world.
Such an ambitious collaboration between the two countries is likely to lead other countries such as Pakistan, United States, and China to better prepear their air forces against such a threatening fighter aircraft which will be capable of using "stealth features" and highly advanced air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems on a high speed super cruise mode.
As tensions between United States and Russia increase over defence shield in Europe. United States government continues to offer Indian government highly advanced weapon systems, aircrafts, and a nuclear energy agreement, which some believe will adversely effect its major non-NATO ally on the war on terrorism, Pakistan.
http://www.defence.pk/news/publish/India_plans_to_fund_Russia_in_order_to_counter_F_A-22_Raptor_20071017.php
Tariq Iqbal | Oct 17, 2007, 11:04
Indian Defence Minister, AK Antony is likely to ink a deal on his visit to Russia for the development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft.
Indian government plans to spend $5 billion on such a project to counter the production of a 5th generation fighter aircrafts in the United States Air Force, F/A-22 Raptor and Joint Strike Fighter.
Such a cooperation will enhance military ties with Russia which still stands today since the days of the communist Soviet Union.
AK Antony will visit Moscow to attend the Indo-Russia inter-government commission on military technical cooperation.
India preferred the Sukhoi's PAK-FA, 5th generation fighter earlier this year, which came after years of consultation and discussions over the issue to enjoy air supremacy throughout the world.
It is expected that both sides will firm up a formal declaration regarding the deal during the defence minister's visit.
"An inter-governmental pact will be signed during the visit, though price negotiations and intellectual property right issues will be sorted out at a later stage", an Indian defense official said.
If the deal is inked, the deal will be the largest multi-billion-dollar military deal between the two countries for the development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft which will guarantee air supremacy a long with the already highly capable fighter aircrafts, who already posses significant advantage against American, French, Chinese and European fighter aircrafts.
India and Russia both are looking for a next generation stealth fighter which would adequately match, if not exceed the capabilities of the US Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor, which is already in service, as well as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Lightning, being jointly developed by the United States and the United Kingdom.
Meanwhile air force chief, Air Chief Marshal FH Major has confirmed that the IAF has finalized the technical requirements for the fifth generation aircraft.
"The air staff requirements for the fifth generation fighters have been made. It will take five years for development and it will be 8-10 years before the first fighter takes to the skies," he said.
India plans to contribute to the 5th generation fighter aircraft pro-gramme and gain some valuable expertise for its own defence research and development establishments who struggle to meet the requirements of its air force for a light combat aircraft, LCA.
Sukhoi Design Bureau has already finalized the basic design and features of the aircraft. The PAK-FA is expected to have advanced stealth features, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, thrust vectoring for increased maneuverability and a super-cruise mode to fly at supersonic speed without using afterburners.
According to the Russian defense officials, a prototype of the PAK-FA would make its first flight in early 2009 marking a near era for both air forces of the world.
Such an ambitious collaboration between the two countries is likely to lead other countries such as Pakistan, United States, and China to better prepear their air forces against such a threatening fighter aircraft which will be capable of using "stealth features" and highly advanced air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems on a high speed super cruise mode.
As tensions between United States and Russia increase over defence shield in Europe. United States government continues to offer Indian government highly advanced weapon systems, aircrafts, and a nuclear energy agreement, which some believe will adversely effect its major non-NATO ally on the war on terrorism, Pakistan.
http://www.defence.pk/news/publish/India_plans_to_fund_Russia_in_order_to_counter_F_A-22_Raptor_20071017.php