TÓPICO OFICIAL DO FX-2: GRIPEN NG

[Penguin]

Demoramos 20 anos para escolher um caça e no final só poderemos vender para os amigos do sinhozinho... é isso que dá acreditar no pessoal do mkt...

Realmente não entendo esta polêmica.

Não pudemos vender nem ST ou AMX para a Venezuela, mesmo tendo nós mesmos desenvolvido estas aeronaves, qual a surpresa de não podermos vender um avião desenvolvido lá fora para a Argentina? Na época em que eu trabalhei em uma fábrica de motores diesel de origem inglesa mas já nacionalizada fomos proibidos de vender alguns lotes de unidades de grande porte para o Iraque porque as bombas injetoras eram alemãs, e os EUA solicitaram que eles não fornecessem estas bombas. Imagine no caso de material bélico sensível como caças modernos .

Podem esquecer, se quisermos ter a possibilidade de vender qualquer produto que seja sem limitações impostas por outros países teremos que ter também a capacidade de desenvolver aqui toda a sua cadeia produtiva, ou possuir um nível de influência internacional que hoje sequer se pode imaginar. Como jamais teremos nem uma coisa nem outra devíamos estar dando ênfase ao desenvolvimento de produtos e/ou armamentos que possamos dominar completamente, e o resto compramos de prateleira ou no máximo produzimos para nosso próprio uso. Exportações de armamentos com componentes importantes estrangeiros só esporadicamente, para quem for amigo de todo mundo e em pequenas quantidades. Qualquer expectativa diferente é só um sonho inocente.


Leandro G. Card

X2

[Viktor Reznov]

Ouvi falar por aí que a India está ameaçando cancelar o contrato dos Rafale.

[Marino]

Spock, se é MINHA, com propriedade industrial e intelectual, eu faço o que quero.
Para de falácia com bolivarianos.
E haja distorção.

Só pode ser SUA se criou desenvolveu e fabricou ,,, se for objeto de ToT, por definição vc tem um sócio e as considerações do sócio tem que ser levadas em conta ...

Para vc com essa cantilena revanchista ...

Haja retrocesso !

Spock, se é minha a propriedade intelectual e industrial, se eu PAGUEI pela ToT e a tecnologia passa a ser minha, eu faço o que quero com ela.
Outros equipamentos, como radar, turbina, estas comodities, podem ser embargadas pelos vendedores.
Vc acha que só tem analfabeto funcional aqui?
Cantilena revanchista de cú é rola.
Acho engraçado um forista que só escreve sobre um assunto, em um só tópico, de seus INTERÉSSES, como dizia um antigo governador, venha me acusar de promover retrocesso e revanchismo.
Vai te catar.

[Marino]

Ah, já me denunciei, nao se preocupe em fazê-lo.

[kirk]

Ouvi falar por aí que a India está ameaçando cancelar o contrato dos Rafale.

Tem alguma coisa na mídia ?

[kirk]

Gripen Air Force Aircraft Brazil Swedish

Aumente o volume tigrada !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EowGp7OEapc

[FIGHTERCOM]

Falklands War 2? Argentina’s new fighters a serious threat
Argentina has placed an order for 24 Saabs – and they’re Top Gun aircraft not family saloons

Argentina’s announcement that it plans to acquire 24 Saab Gripen fighter-bombers caused scarcely a ripple in the headlines last week, and so far has produced no reaction from Whitehall.

It should. The purchase calls the bluff on Britain’s current stance on the Falkland Islands. This is the first major purchase of new military aircraft by the Argentine government since the Falklands War 32 years ago.

Buying the Gripen shows serious intent. It is more capable than any aircraft the RAF currently deploys – and could match anything the RAF is likely to have in five to eight years’ time, which is when the Fuerza Aerea’s new attack planes are expected to become fully operational.

The plan to buy the new generation of the highly successful Swedish-designed Gripen aircraft was revealed by Argentina’s defence minister Agustin Rossi on 21 October during a visit to Brazil. In a joint press conference with his Brazilian counterpart he said the details “are to be worked out over the next four months”.

But it is already clear that the terms of the deal are of a global interest that goes far beyond the Falklands dispute.

The 24 aircraft destined for Argentina are being tacked on to an order for 36 Gripen for Brazil’s air force. That contract, due to be signed by December, involves a joint venture between Saab of Sweden – the plane’s original designer and manufacturer – and Embraer of Brazil, who will make a number of airframes.

Argentina now intends to be part of that joint venture, and is setting up a production line to make parts for the aircraft. At a later stage, Argentina and Brazil say they hope to develop the new advanced twin-seater version of the Gripen. They expect to find markets in Ecuador, Paraguay and Uruguay.

In other words, the partnership between Saab and Embraer aims to produce a Latin American advanced fighter for Latin American markets.

The Gripen is a highly agile single-seater fighter which proved itself in the air operations over Libya in 2011. “It was good to fly, reliable and easy to maintain – it was the automatic second choice for the allied air forces, barring the best of what their own nations had,” the RAF commander in the Mediterranean, Air Vice Marshal Edward Stringer, told me.

Brazil, which has a well developed civil and military aircraft industry of its own, chose the Gripen in preference to France’s Dassault Rafale and the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet. (Neither the Bae Typhoon nor the American Lockheed Martin F-35 reached the final round.)

The Gripen comes in several variants, including one for aircraft carriers, which raises the question – why was it not chosen for the two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers instead of the hideously expensive Lockheed Martin F-35 whose costs are still soaring?

For Argentina, the new aircraft will be more than a match for the present defences in and around the Falkland Islands. These consist of between four and five older-model Typhoon air defence fighters, and four or five Rapier air defence missile batteries, much like the ones that were first landed on the islands during fighting in 1982.

The garrison consists of a large company group of soldiers, and two or three hundred members of the RAF. The Navy has two inshore patrol vessels, with a frigate and a nuclear attack submarine visiting occasionally.

For Britain, it will be tough to beef up the Falklands defences at a time of increasing budget cuts: the Treasury has just informed the Ministry of Defence that it will be seeking a further 7.5 per cent cut in next year’s defence review.

The Tories are virtually committed to such a cut if they are re-elected next May. Yet the defence of the Falklands is part of the Margaret Thatcher hagiography and iconography. A Tory leader who bargains away sovereignty, allowing the Falklands to morph to the Malvinas, would be in trouble with the party, even today.

But it may be out of the hands of any British prime minister, whoever he or she may be, because Britain is more likely to be even more isolated than it was in 1982 if it comes to another scrap in the South Atlantic.

In 1982 Argentina was a military dictatorship with a terrible human rights record. Today democratic Argentina has the broad support of its Latin American allies, especially Brazil.

Nor is any present or future US administration guaranteed to back Britain in a further spat with Argentina. In 1982, remember, some in the Reagan administration such as his UN ambassador Jean Kirkpatrick sympathised with Argentina.

American indifference - or worse - could matter in one crucial respect. In eight years’ time, when our principal advanced strike aircraft will be the Lockheed Martin F-35, the US will be vital for maintenance of these aircraft, including the management of critical software codes.

All of this should be a warning to the UK government to start doing something to resolve the Falklands issue with due haste – before it becomes another victim of Cameron’s foreign policy philosophy: just in time, but never just good enough.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/610 ... ous-threat

[FIGHTERCOM]

Gripen Fighters Won’t Save the Argentine Air Force

Buenos Aires has bigger air power problems

Argentina has expressed interest in buying 24 Gripen E fighters from Brazil, which has just inked a licensing deal with Sweden permitting the South American country to manufacture its own copies of Saab’s new single-engine fighter.

“Our willingness to cooperate with Argentina, our neighbor and ally, is total,” Brazilian defense minister Celso Amorim said.

If you’re British and you’re worried—don’t be. A few Gripens will barely begin to restore the badly-depleted Argentine air arm, which lost up to a third of its 409 warplanes during two months of brutal fighting with U.K. forces over the Falkland Islands in 1982.

In the 32 years since losing the South Atlantic war, the Fuerza Aerea Argentina and the air wings of the Argentine army and navy have managed to acquire just a few dozens planes—many of them secondhand A-4 attack jets from America—and upgrade a few existing aircraft to make good their 1982 losses.

And owing to funding shortfalls and mismanagement, more and more of Argentina’s roughly 270 current aircraft have fallen into military irrelevance or even total disrepair.

“The entire air force fleet lacks modern avionics and systems, and still uses analog equipment,” Santiago Rivas wrote in Combat Aircraft magazine. “Aircraft have missed out on self-protection equipment, including radar warning receivers, chaff/flare dispensers and so forth.”

The Argentine air force’s missiles and bombs are antiquated.

“Critically, only the A-4s have an aerial refueling capability and there are just two tankers. [Airborne early warning] capability is nonexistent,” Rivas added, “despite the fact that controlling the airspace of such a large country is a major and vital task.”

Even if Argentina does end up buying the Gripens—and there are lots of reasons it probably won’t—it will still be hundreds of new planes short of a modern air force, one capable of matching the U.K. or another major rival in battle.

The Royal Air Force, for one, might be smaller than it was in 1982, but it still possesses hundreds of modern aircraft, including Typhoon fighters, upgraded Tornado bombers, Sentry early-warning planes, new Voyager tankers and a host of spy planes including drones.


Engine veto

The Gripen E, a major upgrade of Sweden’s Gripen C, is powered by an American-made General Electric F414 engine. U.S. export law gives Washington veto power over any sale of the motor, even as part of a foreign warplane.

So if the U.S.—the U.K.’s closest ally—so chooses, it could more or less cancel Brazil’s proposed Gripen sale to Argentina. Indeed, London has repeatedly leaned on its allies not to sell jet fighters to Buenos Aires.

In the past couple of years, Great Britain has diplomatically defeated Argentina’s attempt to buy used Mirage F.1 fighters from Spain as well as the Latin American country’s proposal to hire a French company to upgrade Argentine Super Etendard attack planes.

Argentina has been in talks to acquire mothballed Kfir fighters from Israel, but like the Gripens these jets have American engines, thus giving the U.K. a wedge to block any transfer.

Now, just because America could halt a Gripen sale at Britain’s request doesn’t mean it definitely will. The U.S. and Argentina are not unfriendly to each other. As recently as the late 1990s, Washington approved the transfer of three dozen secondhand A-4 attack planes to the Fuerza Aerea Argentina.

But even assuming no one blocks the Gripen sale—and also assuming Buenos Aires can afford the roughly billion-dollar price—the Argentine air arm will still be a broken force.

After all, two dozen fighters do not an air force make. The fighters need tankers to refuel them, radar early warning planes to help them spot targets, transport planes to support their deployments and training aircraft to get their pilots up to snuff.

They need good, modern weapons.

Air forces are complex organizations that, even more than they need particular aircraft, require professional management. Especially when money is short and procurement options are limited.

In the Argentine air force, “there has been no consistent planning,” Rivas wrote. And until that changes, new Gripens won’t even begin to save the Fuerza Aerea Argentina.

[Penguin]

Vou destacar o trecho em vermelho abaixo que resume bem a situação.

Gripen Fighters Won’t Save the Argentine Air Force

Buenos Aires has bigger air power problems

Argentina has expressed interest in buying 24 Gripen E fighters from Brazil, which has just inked a licensing deal with Sweden permitting the South American country to manufacture its own copies of Saab’s new single-engine fighter.

“Our willingness to cooperate with Argentina, our neighbor and ally, is total,” Brazilian defense minister Celso Amorim said.

If you’re British and you’re worried—don’t be. A few Gripens will barely begin to restore the badly-depleted Argentine air arm, which lost up to a third of its 409 warplanes during two months of brutal fighting with U.K. forces over the Falkland Islands in 1982.

In the 32 years since losing the South Atlantic war, the Fuerza Aerea Argentina and the air wings of the Argentine army and navy have managed to acquire just a few dozens planes—many of them secondhand A-4 attack jets from America—and upgrade a few existing aircraft to make good their 1982 losses.

And owing to funding shortfalls and mismanagement, more and more of Argentina’s roughly 270 current aircraft have fallen into military irrelevance or even total disrepair.

“The entire air force fleet lacks modern avionics and systems, and still uses analog equipment,” Santiago Rivas wrote in Combat Aircraft magazine. “Aircraft have missed out on self-protection equipment, including radar warning receivers, chaff/flare dispensers and so forth.”

The Argentine air force’s missiles and bombs are antiquated.

“Critically, only the A-4s have an aerial refueling capability and there are just two tankers. [Airborne early warning] capability is nonexistent,” Rivas added, “despite the fact that controlling the airspace of such a large country is a major and vital task.”

Even if Argentina does end up buying the Gripens—and there are lots of reasons it probably won’t—it will still be hundreds of new planes short of a modern air force, one capable of matching the U.K. or another major rival in battle.

The Royal Air Force, for one, might be smaller than it was in 1982, but it still possesses hundreds of modern aircraft, including Typhoon fighters, upgraded Tornado bombers, Sentry early-warning planes, new Voyager tankers and a host of spy planes including drones.


Engine veto

The Gripen E, a major upgrade of Sweden’s Gripen C, is powered by an American-made General Electric F414 engine. U.S. export law gives Washington veto power over any sale of the motor, even as part of a foreign warplane.

So if the U.S.—the U.K.’s closest ally—so chooses, it could more or less cancel Brazil’s proposed Gripen sale to Argentina. Indeed, London has repeatedly leaned on its allies not to sell jet fighters to Buenos Aires.

In the past couple of years, Great Britain has diplomatically defeated Argentina’s attempt to buy used Mirage F.1 fighters from Spain as well as the Latin American country’s proposal to hire a French company to upgrade Argentine Super Etendard attack planes.

Argentina has been in talks to acquire mothballed Kfir fighters from Israel, but like the Gripens these jets have American engines, thus giving the U.K. a wedge to block any transfer.

Now, just because America could halt a Gripen sale at Britain’s request doesn’t mean it definitely will. The U.S. and Argentina are not unfriendly to each other. As recently as the late 1990s, Washington approved the transfer of three dozen secondhand A-4 attack planes to the Fuerza Aerea Argentina.

But even assuming no one blocks the Gripen sale—and also assuming Buenos Aires can afford the roughly billion-dollar price—the Argentine air arm will still be a broken force.

After all, two dozen fighters do not an air force make. The fighters need tankers to refuel them, radar early warning planes to help them spot targets, transport planes to support their deployments and training aircraft to get their pilots up to snuff.

They need good, modern weapons.

Air forces are complex organizations that, even more than they need particular aircraft, require professional management. Especially when money is short and procurement options are limited.

In the Argentine air force, “there has been no consistent planning,” Rivas wrote. And until that changes, new Gripens won’t even begin to save the Fuerza Aerea Argentina.

Ou seja, ter acesso a algum caça Ocidental, mesmo usado, se tiver recursos, apenas com muita boa vontade dos EUA, pois nem a França (ou algum membro da OTAN) tem interesse em contrariar seu aliado do outro lado do canal.

[FIGHTERCOM]

Vou destacar o trecho em vermelho abaixo que resume bem a situação.

Ou seja, ter acesso a algum caça Ocidental, mesmo usado, se tiver recursos, apenas com muita boa vontade dos EUA, pois nem a França (ou algum membro da OTAN) tem interesse em contrariar seu aliado do outro lado do canal.

Prezado Penguim,

Mais do que isso, mesmo se eles conseguirem ir adiante com essa aquisição, 24 caças não serão suficientes diante das necessidades da FAA. Afinal, lá falta de treinador a avião de transporte.


Abraços,

Wesley

[suntsé]

Ouvi falar por aí que a India está ameaçando cancelar o contrato dos Rafale.

Eu li que a India só cancelaria a compra se os Franceses se recusassem a entregar navios Mistral à Rússia. Pelas poucas informações que eu tenho, parece que esta compra esta parada. Desde o anuncio de que os franceses saíram vitoriosos, só ficou nisso, no anuncio...depois não deu mais nada. Só negociações para firmar um contrato que se arrastão por anos.

Estou começando a acreditar que o brasil fez certo em não fechar com os franceses. Eles estão se mostrando muito enrolados.

[Alcantara]

Spock, se é MINHA, com propriedade industrial e intelectual, eu faço o que quero.
Para de falácia com bolivarianos.
E haja distorção.

Só que o Brasil NÃO é DONO do PROJETO Gripen... é sócio! Seria dono se comprasse 100% do projeto, ou desenvolvesse um projeto sozinho, assim como fez com o KC-390.
Agora, leve a situação de sociedade para qualquer outro negócio e verá que os sócios não podem fazer o que quiserem da "empresa". A situação já é complicada se for 50%/50%, imagine com porcentagem diferente (e para menos).

Não é porque você botou dinheiro na firma, e que o teu sócio te qualificou em determinada área, que você vai poder fazer negócios sem antes debater o assunto.

Abraços!

[Marino]

Aonde vc viu a assinatura de um acordo de sociedade?
Poste aqui para nós.
Eu vi a assinatura de COMPRA de um avião, com ToT e capacitação de indústrias nacionais.
Nao fui eu que falou em ser dono da propriedade industrial e intelectual.
Quem falou isso foram os marketeiros da SAAB e alguns foristas daqui.
Agora a porca torce o rabo, esta a questão.
Se o Brasil fosse o DONO da propriedade intelectual e industrial vendia para quem quisesse e ponto.
As comodities podiam ser substituídas se o cliente pagasse.
E agora, como fica o marketing desse povo?

[Paisano]

Só pode ser SUA se criou desenvolveu e fabricou ,,, se for objeto de ToT, por definição vc tem um sócio e as considerações do sócio tem que ser levadas em conta ...

Para vc com essa cantilena revanchista ...

Haja retrocesso !

Spock, se é minha a propriedade intelectual e industrial, se eu PAGUEI pela ToT e a tecnologia passa a ser minha, eu faço o que quero com ela.
Outros equipamentos, como radar, turbina, estas comodities, podem ser embargadas pelos vendedores.
Vc acha que só tem analfabeto funcional aqui?
Cantilena revanchista de cú é rola.
Acho engraçado um forista que só escreve sobre um assunto, em um só tópico, de seus INTERÉSSES, como dizia um antigo governador, venha me acusar de promover retrocesso e revanchismo.
Vai te catar.

A Moderação está chamando a ATENÇÃO dos usuários kirk e Marino.

Por outro lado, a Moderação aproveita a oportunidade e deixa dois conceitos já bem conhecidos no DB, para análise e meditação dos colegas agora sancionados:

1 - O que deve ser contraditado é a MENSAGEM e não o MENSAGEIRO;

2 - O órgão do corpo humano a ser usado durante um debate é o CÉREBRO e não o FÍGADO.

Um abraço a todos.

[Olinda]

Estamos pagando pela transferência de tecnologia e ela não será nossa?

Não quer dizer que vamos passar tudo que compramos para os argentinos, ou outro pais que queira comprar os Gripen-BR, pode ser alguma tecnologia que o Brasil já domine, antes do programa FX-2

Olá Olinda!

Acho que precisamos pelo menos esperar que ela seja nossa para DEPOIS sair distribuindo "bondades" para os bolivarianos ... não acha não ???

Quais as tecnologias que o Brasil vai repassar para os possíveis compradores do Gripen-BR? Se não sabemos não pode-se dizer que vamos transferir algo que não adquirimos ainda, e nem foi dito que não haveria custo para os possíveis compradores do Gripen-BR. Afinal de contas uma das promessas da Saab é que o Brasil poderia vender o Gripen-BR na America Latina, não vi nada sobre restrições.