Leopard 1A5 do EB

Assuntos em discussão: Exército Brasileiro e exércitos estrangeiros, armamentos, equipamentos de exércitos em geral.

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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3691 Mensagem por Reginaldo Bacchi » Seg Set 19, 2011 2:40 pm

Túlio escreveu:Compreendo e aprecio teus argumentos, Bacchi. Mas insisto que pegar um carro projetado para usar 105 e botar 120 tem desvantagens como, entre outras:
:arrow: Necessidade de modificações externas e internas na torre (a peça é MAIOR).
:arrow: Redução da capacidade de munição (A MUNIÇÃO É maior).
:arrow: Aumento da carga de trabalho do Auxiliar do Atirador (a munição é MAIOR E MAIS PESADA).
E há armas mais interessantes - a meu ver - como o Rheinmetall 105/L51 de alma lisa, podendo-se usar o Rh-105-20 (20 toneladas de recuo) ou o mais potente Rh-105-30 (30 toneladas de recuo), aumentando em uns 30% a energia de impacto e a velocidade subindo para cerca de 1700 m/s (o L7/M68 fica em uns 1474 m/s).
Nas buenas, e sem querer parecer impertinente, mas me pareceria bem mais simples mudar para essa do que subir para um 120 mais 'anêmico' só para poder dizer que tem peça principal de calibre maior. Além disso, para me ater apenas aos três motivos acima expostos, diria que as modificações na torre seria mínimas, a capacidade de munição permaneceria a mesma bem como a carga de trabalho do Auxiliar (provavelmente até seria reduzida, eis que o estojo é combustível). E, como plus, o poder de fogo aumentaria substancialmente, enquanto que a carga de recuo sobre o veículo/sistema de estabilização de pontaria se reduziria (30 t x 48 t). Vou além, a cadência de tiro poderia até aumentar pelo 'coice' mais suave e remuniciamento mais rápido.
Mas tomemos os carros TAM e Leo1A5:
:arrow: Capacidade de munição 105:
TAM - 50
Leo - 60
Para quanto cairia se fosse para 120mm? Menos munição, menor persistência (sabemos que os CCs levam vários tipos de munição, uma redução substancial no total iria complicar), além do que os espaços de armazenamento foram desenhados para 105, teriam de ser modificados e possivelmente haveria perdas extras de capacidade em função das dimensões originais...
Por fim, simplesmente botar um 120, por potente que seja (e tenho minhas dúvidas sobre os que citaste, se são tão melhores/equivalentes que/ao 120 L/55 por que não se os usa para reduzir-lhe o enorme peso?), num TAM ou Leo não o tornaria de uma hora para outra um rival à altura de um Abrams/Merkava/Leo2A6/7, no máximo um rival do nível de outro que usasse um 105 como o que citei. A com mais munição a bordo.. :wink: 8-]
Meu caro Tulio, você começa sua resposta de uma maneira errada: “...Compreendo e aprecio teus argumentos, Bacchi. ...”.

Eu não argumentei - o que eu fiz foi tentar mostrar que os dados técnicos que você tinha apresentado para mostrar a impossibilidade do uso do 120 mm (padrão Rh OTAN) no lugar do 105 mm (padrão L7) não eram validos, por já terem sido superados pelo avanço tecnológico do armamento, e que havia vários carros, entre 25 e 35 toneladas que já tinham recebido este armamento.

O que para mim era o mais importante, era tentar evitar que os dados que você tinha postado se tornassem dogma da religião tecno-militar que domina os nossos sítios de defesa.

Eu não pretendo entrar no mérito da questão de se vale a pena trocar o canhão de 105 mm para 120 mm em carros que tenham recebido o 105 mm originalmente. Acho esta discussão fascinante, mas considero que não tenho capacidade nem vontade em participar dela.

Eu sei que existem pessoas prontas para participar com a máxima satisfação.

Por favor me desculpe.

Bacchi




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3692 Mensagem por Túlio » Seg Set 19, 2011 3:19 pm

Sem problemas, não há nada a desculpar, Bacchi. Para mim és PROFESSOR, aprendi (aprendo) muito contigo. De minha parte, não sou mesmo do tipo 'dogmático', apenas pesquiso e argumento em razão do que aprendo. E proponho soluções, sempre que as encontro (ou imagino). Mas aceito a argumentação oposta e muitas vezes mudei publicamente meu ponto de vista ao ver que estava ERRADO!

Assim, o que expus é a MINHA visão, outras são bem-vindas a um belo debate, venha de quem vier. No fim, sempre se sai sabendo um pouco mais do que no começo.

Ah, fui pesquisar o CV-90 com peça 120mm (estava espantado com um carro tão pequeno e leve usando tudo isso), não é um CV-90 no qual simplesmente se colocou uma peça 120, é OUTRO carro, um desenvolvimento ulterior com o dobro do peso do modelo-base. E maior. A charla começou com ADAPTAR um TAM - e eu acrescentei o nosso Leo1A5 por conta própria - para usar 120, o caso Sueco me parece BEM diverso.

Para ADAPTAR um CC ao uso de peça com calibre superior há muito mais fatores envolvidos do que simples força de recuo, foi o que eu quis demonstrar. Por exemplo, o interior da torre absolutamente não será o mesmo se lhe adaptarmos uma peça principal com recuo (bem) mais longo para redução do 'coice', da mesma forma que a culatra de um 120 não é do mesmo tamanho que a de um 105. E o espaço interno na torre é limitado, são três pessoas, uma metralhadora coaxial com suas munições de uso imediato e de reserva, munições para a peça principal (uso imediato e reserva), sensores, estabilizadores para a peça principal, equipamento de comunicações, computador(es), ar condicionado, periscópios, etc...

Eis aí a razão de eu ter dito, posts atrás, que a Argentina - nós também, nos Urutu/Cascavel - falhou ao não desenvolver o TAM para modelos posteriores, acompanhando o avanço tecnológico. A MEU VER, simplesmente pegar um TAM como está e botar um 120 pouco ou nada resolve, vai ter que mexer tanto que seria mais lógico desenvolver ou comprar um novo carro...

É o que penso. 8-]




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3693 Mensagem por Túlio » Seg Set 19, 2011 3:26 pm

Ah, sabendo que o Bacchi não está mais no debate, pergunto aos colegas: seria essa moleza toda tirar o pequeno Cockerill da pequena torre de um Cascavel e botar um L7/M68 no lugar? Tipo assim, tira um, bota o outro e sai dando tiro por aí? Não, né? Mesmo 105 ou até 120 mais modernos envolveriam um vasto reprojeto em várias partes do carro (muitas já citadas) e, sempre a meu ver, o aumento do poder de fogo de modo algum compensaria a redução da munição e espaço interno disponíveis, além de o custo ser bem salgado... :wink: 8-]




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3694 Mensagem por helio » Seg Set 19, 2011 3:46 pm

Tulio
Vcs sabem muito bem que sou um leigo nesta matéria.
Entretanto posso lembrar que os M41 uruguaios receberam canhões 90mm sem problemas
Não entendo nada de canhões ,mas falando de forma simplista, trocar um canhão de 75mm para outro de 90mm ou então um de 105mm para outro de 120mm não seria parecido?

Hélio




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3695 Mensagem por FCarvalho » Seg Set 19, 2011 5:12 pm

Nou sou especialista, as acredito que o maior problema seria adaptar a massa do canhão em uma torre que não foi projeada originalmente para ele. Imagina uma torre do EE-9 com um canhão de 105mm?

Obvimanente, que seriam necessários mudanças de engenharia de peso, o que talvez, como Tulio coloca, poriam em xeque as qualidades do veiculo e a relação custo-beneficio da mudança.

Eu por exemplo, sempre defendi aqui a alteração do canhão do Leo1A5 por uma peça de 120mm de baixo recuo, e eins que o próprio Bacchi ilustrou concretamente o que propus, demonstrando a viabilidade tecnica de se fazer tal alteração. No caso do Leo1a5 seria plausível imagainar-se a peça da IMI ou a Oto Melara, e função das afindades industriais advindas por aqui.

Agora, se isto levaria a uma melhoria significava do desempenho do carro, a ponto de oportunizar, industrial e comercialmente, tal alteração, só uma ampla pesquisa tecnica para responder.

Mas convenhamos. Para um exercito que não sabe o que é e nem prevê nenhuma guerra de verdade no curto/medio prazo, com parcos recursos para manutenção, suprimentos e treinamento, e sem uma politica competente para deerminar seus parametros de existência e qualificação, será que tais mudanças em um bldo já quarentão, e que servirá tão somente de base de manutenção da doutrina blda, vale mesmo a pena investir recursos vultosos, que a bem da verdade nem temos?

Afinal, " vira-lata acostumado a roer osso, quando arruma uma bisteca, acha que é filé mignon." :|

abs.




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3696 Mensagem por Túlio » Seg Set 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Hélio, a troca da peça principal do M-41 não foi nada lógica: trocou-se uma peça de menor calibre e mais potente por uma de maior calibre e menos potente. Senão vejamos:

M-41 com peça M32 de 76mm, munição HE: velocidade de boca 732 m/s e peso de 11,7 kg.

m-41 com peça Cockerill Mk II (EC-90), munição HE: velocidade de boca 700 m/s e peso de 8,5 kg.

Mais calibre por menos desempenho. Ademais, ambas eram munições pequenas e leves para uso em peças de recuo curto para carros leves. Já o 105 difere bem mais para o 120, tanto na diferença de massa x velocidade/curso de recuo. Assim, para se obter um 120 que se compare a um 105 no quesito compatibilidade com um carro mais leve como o TAM pouco se obterá de vantagem real em poder de fogo e certamente algo se perderá em cadência sustentada (o Auxiliar é gente, ele cansa, POWS!!!). Ademais, as peças que o Bacchi citou certamente podem usar as cargas mais 'ardidas' de 120 como a DM-63 mas...e o TAM? Que efeito terá sobre o carro o disparo de uma munição muitíssimo mais potente do que a que foi projetado para usar? Até que ponto se pode colocar naquela torrezinha um sistema com o dobro ou mais de capacidade de absorção de recuo? Até que ponto se pode alongar o curso do recuo, lembrando que o carro cedo ou tarde terá de efetuar disparos laterais?

Há outro ponto: o Bacchi vai ficar pê da cara de eu estar citando ele sem parar mas não tenho culpa de tomá-lo como REFERÊNCIA - tanto como a ti mesmo, ao Bastos, ao Elígio, ao Guerra - e cito aquelas armas bem mais leves que ele apontou: bueno, uma DM-63 tem sua enorme energia natural de recuo e esta tem de ser dissipada/absorvida de algum modo. Uma peça mais pesada como o Rh-L44/55 ajuda nisso, o recuo tem de 'empurrar' 4,5 t (L44) para trás, parte dele se dissipa aí. O resto é com o amortecimento. Agora vejamos: e uma peça com metade desse peso? As soluções mais óbvias são alongar o curso do recuo e aumentar a capacidade de amortecimento/absorção de energia. Isso tudo implica em estruturas bem maiores e mais pesadas para compensar o que se perdeu no peso (massa) da peça. Não vejo solução para o TAM neste aspecto masss....

Bueno, tu o conheces pessoalmente, eu não! :wink: 8-]


PS.: essa do 'leigo' foi tri. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

PS2.: parte da resposta acima serve também ao FCarvalho. Qual o sentido de mexer NO CALIBRE se se pode mantê-lo porém com peça e munição MUITO melhores, como o citado Rh 105 L/51-30? Devem haver outras peças do tipo também, caso se implique com os Alemães e as modificações no CC serão bem menores do que no caso do 120. Ao menos em tese...

EDIT - pesquisei em diversos sites mas quero fazer menção ao do Professor Expedito Carlos Stephani Bastos sobre a comparação entre o 90 e o 76:

http://www.ecsbdefesa.com.br/fts/M41.pdf




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Hader

Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3697 Mensagem por Hader » Seg Set 19, 2011 5:54 pm

Um vídeo interessante para ilustrar a questão de como dissipar parte da energia do disparo (recoil).

http://vimeo.com/23773347




Hader

Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3698 Mensagem por Hader » Seg Set 19, 2011 6:04 pm

Desculpem o texto longo, mas é interessante. Contém algumas imprecisões mas, no geral, é um bom texto (as referências perderam os parêntesis, mas dá para entender). Original aqui: http://s4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ar/t1639.htm

Large Caliber Tank Guns for Lightweight Platforms


The gun versus armor dilemma regarding the evolution of tank design has catalyzed a trend to increase gun caliber in order to enhance lethality. Tank technology has witnessed this trend since the beginning of tank warfare during the First World War, but truly began to take-off in the late-1930s. For example, during the Spanish Civil War national Panzer Is, supplied to Franco’s forces by Hitler’s Third Reich, found themselves outgunned by the Soviet Union’s larger T-26s. Although during the opening armor clashes of the war during the Battle of Madrid Panzer Is found it suitable to use 7.92mm armor-piercing ammunition at a maximum of 150m range, Republican T-26s responded by engaging at longer ranges, up to 1,000m. The Panzer I’s light 7.92mm MG13 machine gun was not capable of penetrating the T-26’s steel armor plating at long-.ranges, while the T-26 could easily engage and defeat the Panzer I at almost a kilometer using their 45mm high velocity artillery cannons. Consequently, the National Front attempted to exchange the armament with an Italian 20mm model 35 anti-aircraft gun, which could penetrate 40mm of steel at 250m range. There were even attempts to fit a Panzer I with 37mm and 45mm anti-tank guns, although these failed at the drawing board. 1 The process of increasing lethality continued during the 1930s, to the point where Germany’s Panzer IIIs were armed with 37mm tank guns. During the Second World War, the process of increasing gun caliber escalated and six years of war saw the evolution of the tank gun from 37mm to up to 128mm! 2

The end of the war saw the division of the world into two separate camps, led by the United States and by the Soviet Union. The West consolidated unto one caliber – the 90mm gun which was mounted on the Pershing tank and early modernizations thereof (M46, M47 and M48, for example). The Soviet Union left the war with the 122mm gun on the Stalin tank series, and the 85mm gun on their T-34/85s. Although some prototypes of the T-44 were armed with 100mm guns (and others with 122mm guns), the first series mass production of a 100mm armed tank began with the T-54 in 1947. 3 NATO’s L7 rifled 105mm gun, of British design, was adopted due to a first-hand glimpse of the tank when a Hungarian rebel drove a T-54 onto Budapest’s British embassy. 4 The cold war saw a slower pace of gun evolution, but the Soviets quickly introduced the 115mm tank-gun on early versions of the T-64, when an Iranian M60 defected to the Soviet Union, and then a 125mm gun thereafter. NATO continued to use the 105mm gun until the late 1970s when the Leopard 2 began series production with Rheinmetall’s 120mm L/44 tank gun. It should be noted that there were heavy tank designs in both the Soviet Union and the West with 122mm and 120mm tank-guns, but these are a different class of vehicles and were not produces on the same scale as medium tanks. Although the United Kingdom decided to go with the L11 rifled 120mm gun on the Challenger main battle tank (the same gun which was fielded on their Chieftain), the 120mm caliber in general took over the 105mm in all NATO tank-producing countries (United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and the United States) by the mid-1980s. Since then, there has been no enlarging of caliber and instead nations are focusing on improving the 120mm tank gun with revolutionary technologies.5,6No nation has employed the mythical 135mm and 140mm tank-guns in a series-production vehicle to date.

The fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 marked the beginning of new defense policies in NATO. Large and heavy main battle tanks were no longer considered relevant for national defense, and with the demise of the colossal Soviet Army large tank fleets became hard to justify given the required costs of maintenance and procurement. As a direct consequence, several future tank programs were cancelled – such as the Leopard 3 and the Block III Abrams. Instead, nations have begun to focus more on the development of air mobile resources to quickly deploy to trouble spots. These requirements have been magnified with recent operations in Bosnia, Kosovo, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq. Although nations like the United States still perform large-scale invasions (Iraq 1991 and Iraq 2003), most armies no longer require the shock effect of heavy tanks and instead have to focus on easily deployed, yet still powerful airmobile vehicles. The problem is that infantry combat vehicles such as Spain’s Pizarro or Sweden’s CV90-30 don’t have the firepower for direct infantry support, like a tank does. This problem is much more evident in nations that have chosen to completely replace their tank fleet, like Belgium. As a consequence, nations have begun to develop light airmobile tanks based on infantry combat vehicle chassis.

Although such vehicles may never completely replace the main battle tank, they are much more favorable for procurement. To give a rough idea, it costs roughly five to six million euros to purchase a Leopard 2A6 in bulk, while it costs over eight million to purchase a tank which has been produced in lesser quantities (such as the Italian Ariete or the French Leclerc). 7 A future tank will cost at the very least double of what it currently costs. 8 At an early production rate, for example, the non-line of sight cannon (NLOS) will cost over twenty-five million U.S. dollars per vehicle! 9 Although, currently, a state-of-the-art light tank will cost just as much (or possibly more) than main battle tanks from the 1980s,10 they are considerably cheaper than main battle tanks of the same generation. Furthermore, their costs are more easily justified given that a light tank is designed with the ability to fit in a specified tactical transport (in Europe’s case the A400M and in the U. S.’ case the C-130 Hercules), while a main battle tank has only limited aerial transport capabilities in heavy strategic transport aircraft (such as the C-5 Galaxy).

They don’t necessarily need to be considered replacements for the main battle tank, although Belgium has replaced her Leopard 1s with wheeled Piranha armored fighting vehicles and at one point Canada was contemplating the replacement of her Leopard 1C2s with the LAV Stryker mobile gun system. Nations like the United States will mix ‘light brigades’ with ‘heavy brigades’, using them for different missions. Nations like Spain, Denmark or Germany are interested in heavy tanks like their Leopard 2A6s for national defense and for unmatched ground support in the field of survivability, but they’re also looking for lighter alternatives for quick reaction forces to quickly deploy contingents to trouble spots like Afghanistan, Bosnia or Kosovo. In that sense, the two can work in the same army. The United States has deployed mobile gun systems for direct infantry support, to work alongside wheeled armored personnel carriers. The Italian’s have procured large numbers of their Centauro armored fighting vehicles, in the twenty-four ton class, in order to perform cavalry missions and area security missions during peacekeeping operations.22 Their preference is exhibited by the large amounts of orders various nations have placed for these types of vehicles and the amount of money and time spent on further developments and upgrades.

In that sense, in the past seven years defense businesses have worked ‘night-and-day’ to provide lethality improvement options for existing and future armored fighting vehicles. One of the most important areas being developed upon is lethality, and recently several new large-caliber tank guns have been advertised for integration into lightweight armored fighting vehicles between eighteen and thirty tons. These new armaments allow light armored fighting vehicles the same lethality as a main battle tank in the sixty ton class. Understandably, large caliber high velocity cannons produce high recoil forces and the increase in recoil is exponential as gun caliber increases. Consequently, the major areas of improvement remain reducing recoil mass and force and reducing the unbalance of the gun and vehicle during firing.

105mm low-recoil tank guns
Some of the better known 105mm tank-guns are Rheinmetall’s Rh-105-20 and Rh-105-30 series, based on the British L7A3 which had been accepted for service on the Leopard 1. However, these new Rheinmetall 105mm guns have exchanged the rifling of the L7 for the smoothbore of Rheinmetall’s 120mm guns. This, in combination with the use of chromo lining along the inner walls of the barrel, allows the gun to withstand bore pressures of 680MPa, up from 525MPa. The system’s weight has been decreased to 1,550kg through the use of innovative changes in the breech design. Most importantly, the recoil force felt by the vehicle has been reduced to 150kN, allowing the gun to be mounted on armored fighting vehicles of eighteen tons or more. The reduction in recoil has been established by allowing an extended recoil mechanism length of 750mm and by adopting a Rheinmetall specific advanced pepperbox muzzle break. The muzzle break reportedly does no damage to fin-stabilized projectiles by harming the fins and reduces the noise produced through lateral gas venting. The new 105mm series of guns by Rheinmetall can fire new German 105mm APFSDS at a muzzle velocity of 1,700m/s and these rounds can penetrate up to 560mm of rolled homogenous steel (RHA) at 1km, allowing the gun to defeat the T-72’s frontal arc.12,13

The LAV Stryker mobile gun system (MGS) is currently armed with the M68A1 105mm rifled gun, based on the British L7, which have been recycled from earlier use on M1 Abrams. Early models of the gun featured a pepperbox muzzle break, but high noise production threatened the safety of dismounted infantry and as a consequence deployed Stryker mobile gun systems don’t feature a muzzle break on their M68 105mm guns. In that sense, Rheinmetall’s new smoothbore 105mm guns might present an option for a future improvement program. United Defense, now owned by BAE Systems, developed the M35 low-recoil gun for the M8 armored gun system, now defunct.14 The aluminum turret means that the recoil force imparted by the gun had to be low enough to not damage the structure. As mentioned, the M8 program was canceled in the mid-90s and has not successfully been exported. Currently, the program continues within the Lightning Bolt II and a low-recoil 120mm gun.



Perhaps one of the most interesting new 105mm gun options is Cockerill’s 105mm CV tank gun. The new gun is bedded to a new CMI turret, weighing only 4.5 tons. At 52 calibers in length, the gun keeps the same bore geometry as the British L7 and therefore is compatible with all existing 105mm ammunition for rifled guns. Recoil is reduced through a very efficient muzzle break (70% efficiency) and an extended recoil length of 580mm. That said, the recoil force is the same as Rheinmetall’s 105mm options – 150kN. Furthermore, the new turret is designed to fit inside of a C-130.15 Fired from the 105mm CV the new Mecar 105mm M1060 APFSDS has a muzzle velocity of 1,520-1,560m/s and at 2km can penetrate 510mm of rolled homogenous armor at 60º obliquity (460mm at 0º obliquity).16 The new turret may replace the 90mm gun turret currently on Belgium’s MOWAG Piranha IIIC, which replaced their Leopard 1BEs. On the Piranha the 105mm gun turret can carry sixteen 105mm rounds at ready, and the autoloader can load six to eight rounds per minute. Very importantly, the gun can elevate up to 42º in the new turret.17

Other 105mm guns have been developed around the world. The South African company Denel offers the GT3 105mm gun, weighing roughly 2,900kg. India’s Ordnance Factory Kanpur offers a 1,287kg 105mm gun to upgrade T-54s and T-55s. This new gun is based on the British L7 and is rifled, and has an effective range of 4km. BAE systems itself is offering a new improvement of the L7, now 6.66m in length and weighing only 1,334kg.18

120mm low-recoil designs
Rheinmetall, apart from their new series of 105mm guns, offer the 120mm L/47 lightweight low-recoil (LLR) tank gun. The system is designed to fit on vehicles of the twenty-five ton class and keep compatibility with A400M transportation.19 France’s Nexter has introduced their new 120mm L/52 FER (Faible Effect du Recul) low-recoil tank-gun designed to be adopted by vehicles of the twenty-five ton class, such as the future French EBRC armored car. The 120 FER has a twin-chamber muzzle brake and features a 550mm recoil length. These two guns are similar to Italy’s 120mm L/45 low-recoil tank gun designed by Oto Melara. The new pepperbox muzzle break and 550mm recoil length has reduced recoil mass to twenty-five tons, and the weapon is currently being offered for export on the Centauro 8x8 armored fighting vehicle on a new HITFIST turret. Denel offers the GT12 120mm gun for South Africa’s Rooikat wheeled armored fighting vehicle, which is currently armed with a 76mm gun. Israel will soon offer a low-recoil 120mm gun based on Slavin Land System’s MG253 for the Sabra main battle tank.20

One of the most successful low-recoil tank guns to date is Ruag’s 120mm compact tank gun (CTG). This gun is fifty calibers in length and has been improved with a muzzle break, having an efficiency of roughly 40%, and an increased extended recoil length – from 410mm to 500mm. Recoil mass has been decreased from 50 tons to 26 tons.21 Currently, Ruag’s 120mm CTG is being used to arm Jordan’s Falcon turret for their Al Hussein turret upgrade for the M60. The gun is matted to an unmanned (the crew is below the turret ring) narrow mantlet turret and a new autoloader which carries eleven rounds.22 It should be noted that the compact breech comes at a price of gained weight. Ruag’s gun system weighs 2,600kg compared to the 1,901kg of the M256 and the 1,100kg of Rheinmetall’s L/44. The same can be seen with Israel’s compact gun systems for their Sabra M60 upgrade – the M253, based on the M251 of the Merkava III, weighs 3,300kg. Currently, Norinco’s 120mm guns for possible T-55 upgrades weigh 2,600kg and France’s F1, used on the Leclerc, weighs 2,800kg.23 The Ruag 120mm CTG, originally designed for an indigenous Swedish main battle tank (ultimately canceled in favor of the Leopard 2A5), has also been chosen to arm the upcoming CV90120-T light tank, based on the CV9030 infantry combat vehicle. The system carries twelve ready-rounds and a further thirty-three can be stowed at the rear of the chassis.24

The United States is currently testing the XM291 lightweight low-recoil tank gun, originally developed in the late 1980s. Originally, the XM291 was composed of a dual-caliber breech which accepted both 120mm and 140mm ammunition. If NATO decided to accept a 140mm gun the gun tube could be exchanged for one of the 140mm diameter, making the transition cheaper. The XM291 was simply an interim solution that increased the lethality of the existing M256 by increasing the length of the gun tube and made possible the transition to a 140mm caliber.25 At some point in the late 1990s the XM291 was turned into a technology demonstrator for an electrothermal-chemical tank gun. In late 1999 the XM291 demonstrator showed that it was coming close to achieving its goal of 16MJ at the muzzle using a M289A2 APFSDS.26 Despite this enormous power, the XM291 can be mounted on the 18.7 ton Lightning Bolt II light tank, based on the M8 chassis.27 The XM36, which will see prototypes delivered by 2009, is supposed to surpass the abilities of the XM291 and will be mounted on the twenty-five ton non-line of sight cannon future combat system.28 The recent developments on the XM291 has been discussed in other Informatives.29

Some considerations on large caliber guns for lightweight vehicles
Light-caliber guns have their own limitations based on the different requirements of any given armored fighting vehicle. These requirements include weight, volume, operational area, et cetera. While there may be a multitude of arrangements for a low-recoil tank gun, including high-lengths, low weights or compactness of the breech, not all of these may be useful on a certain design, depending on the criteria. If the light tank is designed to provide infantry support in an urban environment – such as Iraq – or a forested or mountainous environment – like Afghanistan – then long guns may be a detriment to the design. Longer guns limit the ability for a vehicle to turn into a narrow street, or even ride through one, given that the length of the gun might make it impossible to traverse the turret given the threat of the gun tube hitting a building. On the other hand, light armored vehicles designed to provide a nation a light anti-tank platform, like the Italian Centauro or Belgium’s Piranha IIIC, might require longer guns to allow for higher muzzle velocities and muzzle energies in order to kill enemy tanks in a one on one basis. Therefore, the length of the gun tube should be based entirely on the design requirements of the vehicle, not just to enhance lethality.

Compact tank breeches pay the price in weight, and although they’re great for lower volume turrets they can weigh two to three times the weight of a standard 120mm gun breech. It’s true that a lower volume turret will save weight in the lost armored volume, so a designer must look at all the aspects and wisely juxtapose the possible losses in armored weight and the gained gun weight. You might be surprised to find out that although you did lose weight in armor you gained it all back, or more, through the use of a 3,000kg+ tank gun. 2,000kg is what it would weigh to add appliqué MEXAS to Spain’s Pizarro infantry combat vehicle to increase protection from 14.5mm API to 30mm APFSDS, just as a reference.

In regards to recoil reduction methods, there are trade-offs. Extra room has to be made to allow for the increase in extended recoil length by 100 to 300mm, meaning that if turret roof height is kept the same in relation to the height between the turret roof and the top of the gun breech then the ability to depress will be traded-off. There has to be enough room between the end of the breech and the roof to allow for the recoil mechanism to fully extend, or else the recoil mechanism is going to end up hitting the roof itself and will damage both the gun and the tank. Muzzle breaks have a tendency to damage the fins of fin s stabilized projectiles, so they should be used with caution. The minor damage done can induce yaw on the round, decrease muzzle velocity and muzzle energy. It’s difficult to design a fire control system that takes into consideration these aspects because they can be completely random. After the round has been fired there’s no way for the fire control system to correct the path of the round, and so when yaw has been induced it can’t be fixed. However, new muzzle break technology has allowed to reduce the damage on fins, and according to Rheinmetall – as related above – the new generation of pepperbox muzzle breaks used by Rheinmetall’s current generation low-recoil guns have little to no effect on fin-stabilized ammunition. Muzzle breaks also produce high amounts of noise, which can damage the eardrums of nearby infantrymen, and so this must be taken into account when designing a fire support vehicle. As told above, the Stryker mobile gun system had its muzzle break removed due to this problem.

In other words, the real world advancements in low recoil tank guns have made it possible to play with these technologies on NationStates. But, it shouldn’t be forgotten that there are always trade-offs and prices to pay.

Limitation of light armored fighting vehicles against main battle tanks
While speaking about the comparative lethality of a light armored fighting vehicle armed with a large-caliber gun one can conclude that on the level of firepower the main battle tank has been compromised. This is somewhat true, of course, but the technology applied to these guns can be applied to main battle tanks, as well. If a 120mm gun that originally produced 50 tons worth of recoil has been improved to reduce recoil, then that recoil force can be augmented through the use of larger propellant masses – as if to achieve hypervelocity, although ideally once the maximum effective velocity is reached energy should be translated more into mass of the round. Of course, such a gun is bound to weigh more than the original given that the barrel has to be strengthened to withstand higher bore pressures from large propellants. Nevertheless, the power concepts for a similar technology smoothbore gun for a sixty ton chassis are interesting. Alternatively, low-recoil guns will allow weight decreases in main battle tanks through the adoption of better armor materials and through a smarter distribution of armored mass.

More importantly (and perhaps more realistically) light armored fighting vehicles can’t compete on the level of armor protection. Most modern infantry combat vehicles are designed to withstand hits from 30mm APFSDS, while a main battle tank’s frontal armor array is designed to withstand fire from 105mm or 120mm ammunition. All the while, modern tanks are designated hunter-killers – they have been forged as dedicated tank killing machines – and the role of the large-caliber lightweight armored vehicle doesn’t prioritize this over more pertinent missions such as infantry support. Consequently, the digital architecture of a lightweight armored gun system will be radically different from that of an advanced tank such as the Leopard 2A6 or the M1A2 SEP. In this sense, lightweight armored fighting vehicles can’t hope of taking on enemy tanks on a one-on-one basis with any semblance of parity. So, generally speaking a vehicle like the Centauro will not replace the tank in the short term. The only hopes of this will come through revolutionary technologies, such as extremely lightweight armor which will make possible armor protection levels superior to that of current sixty-ton beasts on a twenty-ton vehicle. Unfortunately, all of this also comes with increased cost penalties.

But then one can ask, what about Belgium? Belgium was the first country to procure the Leopard 1 and the first Leopard 1BEs were delivered in 1968.30 It’s possible that German defense companies were no longer able to supply spare parts to the Leopard 1, or the decreased demand as more and more nations replaced old Leopard tanks with newer Leopard 2s made it uneconomical to continue mass production of spare parts. A similar problem catalyzed Canada’s decision to purchase ex-Dutch Leopard 2A4s and Leopard 2A6s to replace their ageing Leopard 1C2s. For a country like Belgium, with little fears of getting into a war where a heavy main battle tank would be justified, Leopard 2s are too expensive to purchase and too expensive to maintain. Consequently, a light tank force makes much more sense as Belgium operates almost exclusively in peacekeeping operations. That said, these are cheaper and therefore offer a solution to nations with no interests in maintaining a large heavy tank fleet. They are also more versatile for a nation like Belgium, which requires lightweight air mobile units to deploy across large distances – not to mention, lighter vehicles which can fly on tactical aircraft like the C-130 or the A400M make more sense for the independence to deploy when wanted instead of having to use allied strategic heavy lifters.

There are probably dozens of different advantages of lightweight heavily armed armored fighting vehicles. It just requires imagination and understanding of the differences between this and a main battle tank.

Conclusions
The need for lightweight firepower has led to the development of a number of lightweight, low-recoil guns in the real world. These can provide a basis for gun development in NationStates, both for lightweight vehicles and for main battle tanks. Furthermore, it’s increasingly likely that we will see a much larger population of low-recoil guns to study from in the future.

Notes

1. Franco, Lucas Molina, Panzer I: El Inicio de Una Saga, AF Editores, 2005, pp. 47-50.
2. Referring to the 128mm tank-gun on the German Jagdtiger.
3. Zaloga, Steven J., T-54 and T-55 Main Battle Tanks 1944-2004, Osprey Publishing, 2004, p. 6.
4. Ibid., p. 39.
5. Problems Encountered with Higher Caliber Tank Guns
6. [Link to Informative]
7. Mallika, Joseph, Arjun: India’s Main Battle Tank (MBT) From T-80 to Next-Generation, Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, p. 2.
8. Hilmes, Rolf, Aspects of Future MBT Conception, Military Technology, June 1999.
9. U.S. Army to Buy 18 NLOS Cannons Separately From FCS, Defense News
10. Greece’s BMPs were around 5 million per unit according to: [insert link]
11. Fiorentino, Sergio (Col.), Light Armor Units: An Italian Perspective, ARMOR Magazine, July 1995, p. 31.
12. Hilmes, Rolf, Development Trends in Tank Armament, Military Technology, March 2007, p. 89.
13. 105 mm Tank Guns - Rh 105-20 / Rh 105-30
14. Kemp, Ian, Big Guns, Small Platforms, Armada International, June 2006, pp. 8-9.
15. Hilmes, Rolf, Arming Future MBTs – Some Considerations, Military Technology, December 2004, p. 78.
16. Foss, Christopher F., Mecar displays 105mm rounds, Janes Defense Weekly, 9 June 2004, p. 29.
17. Kemp, Ian, Big Guns, Small Platforms, Armada International, June 2006, p. 12.
18. Maxwell, David, New Tanks for Old, Part II: Tank Top Upgrades, Armada International, June 2002, p. 82.
19. Hilmes, Rolf, Development Trends in Tank Armament, Military Technology, March 2007, p. 89.
20. Hilmes, Rolf, Arming Future MBTs – Some Considerations, Military Technology, December 2004, p. 78.
21. Ibid.
22. Huntiller, Mark, Does a New Turret a New Tank Make, Armada International, March 2004, p. 22.
23. Maxwell, David, New Tanks for Old, Part II: Tank Top Upgrades, Armada International, June 2002, p. 82.
24. Kemp, Ian, Big Guns, Small Platforms, Armada International, June 2006, p. 12.
25. Pengelley, Rupert, A new era in tank armament: the options multiply, Janes International Defense News, November 1989, p. 1522.
26. Diamond, P., Electro Thermal Chemical Gun Technology Study, MITRE, March 1999, p. 5.
27. Hilmes, Rolf, Development Trends in Tank Armament, Military Technology, March 2007, p. 89.
28. Kemp, Ian, Big Guns, Small Platforms, Armada International, June 2006, p. 9.
29. [Link to ETC informative]
30. Jerchel, Michael, Leopard 1 Main Battle Tank 1965-1995, Osprey Publishing, 1995, p. 19.




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3699 Mensagem por Túlio » Seg Set 19, 2011 6:27 pm

Texto interessantíssimo. Pesquei uma frase:

Of course, such a gun is bound to weigh more than the original given that the barrel has to be strengthened to withstand higher bore pressures from large propellants.

Traduzindo: é claro, tal arma está destinada a pesar mais do que a original dado que o cano (tubo) tem de ser reforçado para suportar maiores pressões de maiores cargas propelentes.

Ora, é o que eu falei acima: tenho minhas dúvidas sobre peças 120 mais leves disparando cargas mais potentes, a redução do peso traz no bojo a redução da resistência do tubo/câmara/culatra...

E não tinha pensado nesse problema dos 'milagrosos' freios-de-boca...




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3700 Mensagem por Guerra » Seg Set 19, 2011 8:39 pm

Túlio escreveu:Eis aí a razão de eu ter dito, posts atrás, que a Argentina - nós também, nos Urutu/Cascavel - falhou ao não desenvolver o TAM para modelos posteriores, acompanhando o avanço tecnológico. A MEU VER, simplesmente pegar um TAM como está e botar um 120 pouco ou nada resolve, vai ter que mexer tanto que seria mais lógico desenvolver ou comprar um novo carro...

É o que penso. 8-]
Foi o que disse a mais de 100 posts atrás. O TAM é um CC esgotado. A pressão que o TAM exerce no solo esta no limite. A relação peso potencia deles esta no limite. para colocar um quilo em cima do TAM tem que aumentar potencia, e não é pouco.
Veja o leopard. Compare a diferença de potencia entre o leopard 1 A5 e o leopard 2. A diferença é obvio devido ao aumento da torre.
Na epoca do M 41 foi a mesma coisa. A pressão do M 41 aumentou em 0,10 e já tornou o projeto uma droga.

Não estou dizendo que é impossivel. Mas provavelmente os argentinos vão ter um CC com um motor com uma potência monstruosa (vai beber mais que peru em vespera de natal), um canhão fantastico, com uma blindagem que não aguenta nem tiros de 7,62 em alguns pontos. A não ser que mexam na blindagem. E tomem mais potencia....




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3701 Mensagem por Reginaldo Bacchi » Seg Set 19, 2011 9:27 pm

Túlio escreveu:Texto interessantíssimo. Pesquei uma frase:
Of course, such a gun is bound to weigh more than the original given that the barrel has to be strengthened to withstand higher bore pressures from large propellants.
Traduzindo: é claro, tal arma está destinada a pesar mais do que a original dado que o cano (tubo) tem de ser reforçado para suportar maiores pressões de maiores cargas propelentes.
Ora, é o que eu falei acima: tenho minhas dúvidas sobre peças 120 mais leves disparando cargas mais potentes, a redução do peso traz no bojo a redução da resistência do tubo/câmara/culatra...
E não tinha pensado nesse problema dos 'milagrosos' freios-de-boca...
Após ler todo o artigo com a atenção que ele merece, vou fazer comentarios mais detalhados.

Numa leitura rapida tive a impressão de que eu já escrevi quase tudo isto para você.

Bacchi




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3702 Mensagem por Reginaldo Bacchi » Seg Set 19, 2011 9:27 pm

Túlio escreveu:Texto interessantíssimo. Pesquei uma frase:
Of course, such a gun is bound to weigh more than the original given that the barrel has to be strengthened to withstand higher bore pressures from large propellants.
Traduzindo: é claro, tal arma está destinada a pesar mais do que a original dado que o cano (tubo) tem de ser reforçado para suportar maiores pressões de maiores cargas propelentes.
Ora, é o que eu falei acima: tenho minhas dúvidas sobre peças 120 mais leves disparando cargas mais potentes, a redução do peso traz no bojo a redução da resistência do tubo/câmara/culatra...
E não tinha pensado nesse problema dos 'milagrosos' freios-de-boca...
Após ler todo o artigo com a atenção que ele merece, vou fazer comentarios mais detalhados.

Numa leitura rapida tive a impressão de que eu já escrevi quase tudo isto para você.

Bacchi




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3703 Mensagem por Reginaldo Bacchi » Seg Set 19, 2011 9:32 pm

Desculpem ter postado duas vezes, foi devido a minha euforia.

Bacchi




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3704 Mensagem por Túlio » Seg Set 19, 2011 9:48 pm

Tendi não... :|




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Re: quando chegam os leo 1A5 para o EB?

#3705 Mensagem por Reginaldo Bacchi » Seg Set 19, 2011 10:16 pm

Reginaldo Bacchi escreveu:
Após ler todo o artigo com a atenção que ele merece, vou fazer comentarios mais detalhados.
Numa leitura rapida tive a impressão de que eu já escrevi quase tudo isto para você.
Bacchi
Li todo o arquivo com a atenção que ele merece, e, realmente ele afirma tudo aquilo que eu escrevi sobre força de recuo, curso de recuo e peso do canhão.

Em suma eu estou de parabens.

Somente um comentário: aparece varias vezes no artigo um dos erros mais comuns em sitios de defesa anglo saxões.

Este erro é escrever "Muzzle break" e não "Muzzle brake".

Muzzle brake quer dizer "Freio de boca".

Muzzle break não faz sentido, mas é comunissimo o seu uso!!!

Bacchi




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