MMRCA - FX Indiano

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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#481 Mensagem por Penguin » Qua Ago 11, 2010 1:15 pm

soultrain escreveu:Esse artigo distorce o que eu tenho lido.

Pelo que percebi a IAF não desclassificou ninguém, mas no relatório pôs cores: Verde para os Euro Cannards, Amarelo para os Americanos e NG e Vermelho para o Mig (ou foi vermelho par o NG tambem?)

[[]]'s
Boato de um blog, o Chindits.
No post, eles dizem terem tido acesso as papeladas da IAF.
Mas derrapam feio nas informações, citando potências de turbinas erradas e conseqüentemente relação T/W tb erradas. Isso não pode ser levado a sério.

[]s




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#482 Mensagem por PRick » Qua Ago 11, 2010 1:35 pm

Skyway escreveu:verde para Rafale e Typhoon, Amarelo para SH, e vermelho para o resto.

Para quem não sabe, essa história de verde, amarelho e vermelho, é cria da Dilma Roussef, ela foi a grande responsável por esse tipo de critério no andamento das ações do governo federal. Todos os relatórios de acompanhamento do Governo Federal passaram a ser controlados assim pela Casa Civil.

Um sistema simples, mas bastante prático, as ações seguem o cronograma, se estão dentro do prazo, são verdes, se começam a estourar os prazos são amarelos, se estouram o prazos vão ficando vermelhas.

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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#483 Mensagem por crubens » Qua Ago 11, 2010 1:38 pm

Segundo o poder aéreo:
"Apenas boatos
Segundo nosso contato na Índia, Sandeep Unnithan, editor do India Today, as últimas informações sobre o “short-list” do MMRCA são apenas boatos, nada há de concreto. Ele disse que nos manterá informados sobre qualquer novidade consistente da concorrência indiana."




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#484 Mensagem por AlbertoRJ » Qua Ago 11, 2010 1:38 pm

A possível preferência pelo Rafale /Typhoon surgiu em uma matéria do canal Timenow, não?

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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#485 Mensagem por marcelo l. » Qua Ago 11, 2010 1:39 pm

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/

MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!
There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.

As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal – the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.

Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.

The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.

According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

“The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.”

The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."

Price:

The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.

By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.

A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, “The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,” adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.

Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:

It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.

DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.

US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.

Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.

US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet

Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.

Said a senior IAF officer, “The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.”

According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."

US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, “Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,” according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).

Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG

Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.

In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, “The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.”

Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.

European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon

The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).

The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.

French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.

The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.

The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.

Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, “This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25%, 50% or 100% fuel load.” According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.

The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.

The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.

Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)

Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.

With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#486 Mensagem por marcelo l. » Qua Ago 11, 2010 2:01 pm

crubens escreveu:Segundo o poder aéreo:
"Apenas boatos
Segundo nosso contato na Índia, Sandeep Unnithan, editor do India Today, as últimas informações sobre o “short-list” do MMRCA são apenas boatos, nada há de concreto. Ele disse que nos manterá informados sobre qualquer novidade consistente da concorrência indiana."
São boatos, mas a fonte que divulgou é muita boa. De concreto:

- O Rafale por todas informações foi muito bem no teste do aeroporto de Leh,
- Os EUA estão negando material de ponta solicitado pelo Paquistão,
- O novo primeiro-ministro inglês apoia "com entusiasmo" a venda do Eurofighter para India.




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#487 Mensagem por Justin Case » Qua Ago 11, 2010 4:27 pm





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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#488 Mensagem por AlbertoRJ » Qua Ago 11, 2010 4:29 pm

Na época que estavam difamando o Rafale dizendo que não tinha passado nos testes etc. era boato ou tinha uma confirmação oficial?

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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#489 Mensagem por Penguin » Qua Ago 11, 2010 4:57 pm

Justin Case escreveu:Amazing!

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/ma ... e-cut.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TGLv5k0CKPI/AAAAAAAALEQ/aH55ktwgBeA/s1600/P1010537.JPG

Abraços,

Justin
Os boatos pululam. Cada um trás uma versão diferente....
Essa ai de cima diz que o F-16, MiG-35 e Typhoon estão aprovados e o
Rafale, Super Hornet e Gripen NG estão fora. Coincidentemente o shortlist do F-X2. :shock:




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#490 Mensagem por Penguin » Qua Ago 11, 2010 4:59 pm

AlbertoRJ escreveu:Na época que estavam difamando o Rafale dizendo que não tinha passado nos testes etc. era boato ou tinha uma confirmação oficial?

[]'s
Pelo que saiba não houve boato de que determinado caça havia sido reprovado em Leh.
O boato que circulou no LiveFist dizia que 4 caças haviam tido problemas lá.

[]s




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#491 Mensagem por Francoorp » Qua Ago 11, 2010 5:04 pm

crubens escreveu:Segundo o poder aéreo:
"Apenas boatos
Segundo nosso contato na Índia, Sandeep Unnithan, editor do India Today, as últimas informações sobre o “short-list” do MMRCA são apenas boatos, nada há de concreto. Ele disse que nos manterá informados sobre qualquer novidade consistente da concorrência indiana."

Eu gostaria de saber o que faz a informação do Índia Today ser mais "verdadeira" que a da TimesNow???




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#492 Mensagem por Bolovo » Qua Ago 11, 2010 5:08 pm

PRick escreveu:
Skyway escreveu:verde para Rafale e Typhoon, Amarelo para SH, e vermelho para o resto.

Para quem não sabe, essa história de verde, amarelho e vermelho, é cria da Dilma Roussef, ela foi a grande responsável por esse tipo de critério no andamento das ações do governo federal. Todos os relatórios de acompanhamento do Governo Federal passaram a ser controlados assim pela Casa Civil.

Um sistema simples, mas bastante prático, as ações seguem o cronograma, se estão dentro do prazo, são verdes, se começam a estourar os prazos são amarelos, se estouram o prazos vão ficando vermelhas.

[]´s
Nada ver, ela só está homenageando o local onde viveu maior parte de sua vida...

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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#493 Mensagem por Wardog » Qua Ago 11, 2010 11:41 pm

Ministério da Defesa da Índia desmente ‘short-list’ do MMRCA

O porta-voz do Ministério da Defesa da Índia minimizou as informações divulgadas pela mídia de que o caça francês Rafale e o Eurofighter Typhoon tenham emergido como favoritos na concorrência do MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft).

Sitanshu Kar informou ao grupo Jane’s no último da 10 de agosto que nenhuma decisão foi tomada após o Ministério da Defesa ter recebido o relatório das análises técnicas dos participantes.

Recentemente o canal de TV indiano Times Now noticiou que o relatório de avaliação técnica da Força Aérea da Índia sobre os concorrentes do programa MMRCA recomendou a inclusão de somente duas aeronaves no “short-list”: o Rafale e o Typhoon.

FONTE: Jane’s


TA BOM AGORA?

&*($¨@#&*($¨@#&($(@#&$¨@#$




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Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#494 Mensagem por Carlos Mathias » Qui Ago 12, 2010 12:16 am

Não, não tá não.
Eu agora sou como os gripados, acredito mais no relatório vazado, a verdade suprema. :roll: :mrgreen:




PRick

Re: MMRCA - FX Indiano

#495 Mensagem por PRick » Qui Ago 12, 2010 3:55 am

Francoorp escreveu:
crubens escreveu:Segundo o poder aéreo:
"Apenas boatos
Segundo nosso contato na Índia, Sandeep Unnithan, editor do India Today, as últimas informações sobre o “short-list” do MMRCA são apenas boatos, nada há de concreto. Ele disse que nos manterá informados sobre qualquer novidade consistente da concorrência indiana."

Eu gostaria de saber o que faz a informação do Índia Today ser mais "verdadeira" que a da TimesNow???
Se compararmos o que seria o short list, o TimesNow é bem mais coerente, a Short list do Índia Today é um saco de gatos.

[]´s




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