MMRCA - FX Indiano

[Francoorp]

Olha, o timenow é bem respeitável em termos de analises...não são de dar chutes...só acho estranho os americanos estarem fora da final, há muita sintonia entre indianos e tio Sam...no fundo, o governo de Nova deli tenta ficar bem contra os dois adversários de Pequim desse século.

Não esta completamente fora não, vai ser reavaliado... mas creio que na pratica isso vai ser somente para fazer pressão nos outros dois.

[marcelo l.]

Olha, o timenow é bem respeitável em termos de analises...não são de dar chutes...só acho estranho os americanos estarem fora da final, há muita sintonia entre indianos e tio Sam...no fundo, o governo de Nova deli tenta ficar bem contra os dois adversários de Pequim desse século.

Não esta completamente fora não, vai ser reavaliado... mas creio que na pratica isso vai ser somente para fazer pressão nos outros dois.

Se fosse para colocar pressão a nota não sairia neles...provavelmente seria outro veículo. Reavaliar um caça como F-16 ou F-18 que estão no mercado a tanto tempo me soa até estranho.

[caixeiro]

Dados de precos e testes de performace de cada contendor, Prick vai gostar ..

Chindit's Report.

MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!


There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.

As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal – the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.

Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.

The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.

According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

“The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.”

The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."

Price:

The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.

By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.

A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, “The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,” adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.

Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:

It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.

DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.

US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.

Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.

US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet

Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.

Said a senior IAF officer, “The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.”

According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."

US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, “Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,” according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).

Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG

Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.

In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, “The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.”

Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.

European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon

The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).

The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.

French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.

The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.

The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.

Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, “This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25%, 50% or 100% fuel load.” According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.

The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.

The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.

Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)

Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.

With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.

Forista indiano sobre MMRCA

The shortlist is pretty much as I predicted although I thought Super Hornet would have been given a higher place than just a maybe for a renegotiated engine. I would not count out the SH as Boeing is sure to offer upgraded engines to try to win this deal, but then France will come back with a similar offer. Eurofighter would be marginalised after that with no new engines and a bunch of Euro countries divesting from the project. RAF is cutting their firm orders by 53 including all Tranch 3B, Germany by 37, Italy by 25, 20 by Spain. The Captor AESA will not be delivered until 2015 at the earliest and 2017 at the latest, Rafale has already received its first production radar being installed as we speak. If IAF is looking for a dog-fighter, Rafale has proven it is far superior to RAF Typhoons with a record of 9:1 in simulated engagements. The A2G capabilities, range, payload of Rafale are far superior as well as its self-protection. The price tag is also far lower than the over-priced Typhoon. The only way Rafale will lose is if the political significance with EADS is more important than getting the best bang for the buck.

[AlbertoRJ]

Rafale and Eurofighter selected by the Indian Airforce ?!

According to the Indian channel TIMESHOW.TV, the Indian Air Force would have selected the Dassault Rafale and the Eurogihter Typhoon for the final run of the MMRCA competition :


The article states that :

"Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal."

If this short list is confirmed by the Indian governement, it will be the first time that the 2 european fighters will meet in the final of a contest.
In Korea, Singapore and Brazil , the Tyhoon was eliminated before the Rafale.
In Saudi Arabia, the Typhoon was selected witout a competition (despite french president Jacques Chirac pressures to sell the Rafale).

On a pure technical point of view, both aircrafts are very similar. The Eurofighter is often believed to be a better Air 2 Air machine while the Rafale would be a more versatile fighter jet with the ability to perform air to ground and air to air attacks simultaneously.
However, recent international exercices would have proven the Rafale to be more than a match for the Typhoon in both ACM (Air Combat maneuvering) and BVR (Beyong Visual Range). The key points of the Rafale advantage over its european brother would be
a better RCS (radar cross section)
a sensor fusion system allowing a better situational awareness in complex BVR engagements
The TV sensor of the SFO allowing long range identification
The SPECTRA ECM suite allowing passive targeting and missile guidance
The mica passive IIR BVR missile

[Penguin]

Dados de precos e testes de performace de cada contendor, Prick vai gostar ..

Chindit's Report.

MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!


There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.

As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal – the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.

Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.

The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.

According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

“The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.”

The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."

Price:

The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.

By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.

A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, “The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,” adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.

Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:

It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.

DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.

US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.

Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.

US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet

Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.

Said a senior IAF officer, “The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.”

According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."

US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, “Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,” according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).

Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG

Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.

In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, “The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.”

Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.

European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon

The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).

The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.

French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.

The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.

The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.

Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, “This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25%, 50% or 100% fuel load.” According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.

The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.

The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.

Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)

Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.

With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.

Forista indiano sobre MMRCA

The shortlist is pretty much as I predicted although I thought Super Hornet would have been given a higher place than just a maybe for a renegotiated engine. I would not count out the SH as Boeing is sure to offer upgraded engines to try to win this deal, but then France will come back with a similar offer. Eurofighter would be marginalised after that with no new engines and a bunch of Euro countries divesting from the project. RAF is cutting their firm orders by 53 including all Tranch 3B, Germany by 37, Italy by 25, 20 by Spain. The Captor AESA will not be delivered until 2015 at the earliest and 2017 at the latest, Rafale has already received its first production radar being installed as we speak. If IAF is looking for a dog-fighter, Rafale has proven it is far superior to RAF Typhoons with a record of 9:1 in simulated engagements. The A2G capabilities, range, payload of Rafale are far superior as well as its self-protection. The price tag is also far lower than the over-priced Typhoon. The only way Rafale will lose is if the political significance with EADS is more important than getting the best bang for the buck.

Tem algo estranho neste texto. As potências das turbinas do Rafale e do SH não batem com os valores conhecidos:

M88:
O autor alega que as duas turbinas do Rafale geram 176 kN que equivalem a 17.947 kgf. Para isso cada M88-2 teria que gerar 8.973 kgf. Sabe-se que cada M88-2 gera no máximo 7.711 kgf com pc e que ambas geram no máximo 15.422 kgf = 151 kN = 34.000 lbf.
http://www.snecma.com/spip.php?rubrique40&lang=en

F414 (SH):
Alega que as duas F414 geram 180 kN ou 18.355 kgf (= 40.466 lbf).
Sabe-se que ambas turbinas do SH geram 196 kN = 19.958 kgf = 44.000 lbf

A potências dos Typhoon (180 kN = 18.354 kgf = 40.465 lbf) e Gripen NG (97,8 kN = 9.993 kgf = 22000 lbf) estão corretas.

[Carlos Mathias]

Qual a versão usada nos testes?

[PRick]

Nada a se estranhar, apenas confirmaram que o F-18E não é um caça, mas um caça bombardeiro mediano, com desempenho abaixo da média, que o F-16 está no limite de seu desenvolvimento, e mesmo assim não é páreo para o Rafale.

Bem, depois temos o Gripen NG, que não pode ser comparado com o Rafale e o Typhoon, são caças de categorias diferentes.

Mesmo o Mig-35, para ser apenas mais uma melhoria dos Mig-29, chegaram ao máximo de desenvolvimento.

Resultado, sobram os dois projetos mais modernos, com maior capacidade de crescimento.

Na comparação direta, o Rafale é muito mais flexível, manobra melhor, mais barato de comprar e operar, e com um desenvolvimento mais avançado. E ainda dispõe de uma versão naval, dando a Índia uma alternativa.

Como deixaram claro, a persistência de combate do Rafale, está em linha com o F-15, Su-35, F-22 e Pak-Fa, quer dizer é muito maior que os caças de sua classe.

Mais uma vez na comparação direta de performance o Rafale leva a concorrência. Só perde mesmo para F-22, Pak-Fa e F-35(por pouco).

[]´s

[AlbertoRJ]

O dado de thrust-to-weight ratio, que é o fundamento, parece correto.

[]'s

[PRick]

Tem algo estranho neste texto. As potências das turbinas do Rafale e do SH não batem com os valores conhecidos:

M88:
O autor alega que as duas turbinas do Rafale geram 176 kN que equivalem a 17.947 kgf. Para isso cada M88-2 teria que gerar 8.973 kgf. Sabe-se que cada M88-2 gera no máximo 7.711 kgf com pc e que ambas geram no máximo 15.422 kgf = 151 kN = 34.000 lbf.
http://www.snecma.com/spip.php?rubrique40&lang=en Aqui deve ser um erro dos dados, ou eles analizaram uma turbina intermediária, já uma modificação das M-88, algo que já existe.

F414 (SH):
Alega que as duas F414 geram 180 kN ou 18.355 kgf (= 40.466 lbf).
Sabe-se que ambas turbinas do SH geram 196 kN = 19.958 kgf = 44.000 lbfNão creio que tenha havido um erro, afinal ele fala UP TO, acima de. Não fala o número exato, fez o mesmo com o F-16.

A potências dos Typhoon (180 kN = 18.354 kgf = 40.465 lbf) e Gripen NG (97,8 kN = 9.993 kgf = 22000 lbf) estão corretas.

Porém, o que precisa ficar claro é que o F-18E tem sérios problemas com aerodinâmica, e é muito mais pesado que o Rafale, tem relação de carga alar muito inferior, além da limitação de puxada g´s, isso deve ter ficado ainda mais claro na altitude.

Os indianos não querem apenas sistemas, querem um caça de alta performance, aí F-18E já era.

[]´s

[caixeiro]

Tem algo estranho neste texto. As potências das turbinas do Rafale e do SH não batem com os valores conhecidos:

M88:
O autor alega que as duas turbinas do Rafale geram 176 kN que equivalem a 17.947 kgf. Para isso cada M88-2 teria que gerar 8.973 kgf. Sabe-se que cada M88-2 gera no máximo 7.711 kgf com pc e que ambas geram no máximo 15.422 kgf = 151 kN = 34.000 lbf.
http://www.snecma.com/spip.php?rubrique40&lang=en Aqui deve ser um erro dos dados, ou eles analizaram uma turbina intermediária, já uma modificação das M-88, algo que já existe.

F414 (SH):
Alega que as duas F414 geram 180 kN ou 18.355 kgf (= 40.466 lbf).
Sabe-se que ambas turbinas do SH geram 196 kN = 19.958 kgf = 44.000 lbfNão creio que tenha havido um erro, afinal ele fala UP TO, acima de. Não fala o número exato, fez o mesmo com o F-16.

A potências dos Typhoon (180 kN = 18.354 kgf = 40.465 lbf) e Gripen NG (97,8 kN = 9.993 kgf = 22000 lbf) estão corretas.

Porém, o que precisa ficar claro é que o F-18E tem sérios problemas com aerodinâmica, e é muito mais pesado que o Rafale, tem relação de carga alar muito inferior, além da limitação de puxada g´s, isso deve ter ficado ainda mais claro na altitude.

Os indianos não querem apenas sistemas, querem um caça de alta performance, aí F-18E já era.

[]´s

Com relacao a turbinas e ao Rafale os Indianos falam de algo que nao tinha e atentado ainda que e o fato da turbina do LCA-Tejas, que ainda nao resolveram, o Rafale leva vantagem da Snecma ser a possivel fornecedora e eles apontam claramente a vontade de ter tudo independente == nao americano, mais ponto para o Rafale.

[PRick]

Outro ponto que parece bem claro, é que já estava na cara, não é possível comparar o radar do AESA do Gripen, com os AESA do F-18, F-16 e Rafale. São de classe diferente, tem capacidades diferentes.

[]´s

[Carlos Mathias]

eles apontam claramente a vontade de ter tudo independente == nao americano

Porque será?

[Penguin]

O dado de thrust-to-weight ratio, que é o fundamento, parece correto.

[]'s

A ver...a diferença é +/- essa, considerando cargas externas de 1t para ambos:

Rafale com comb. interno + 1t externo
24,5t - 9,5t = 15t (apenas com combustível interno)
15t + 1t = 16t ou 16.000kg ou 35.242lb
T/Wpc = 34.000 / 35.242 = 0,96
T/Wsem pc = 22.500 / 35.242 = 0,64

SH
14,8 (vazio) + 6,8t (comb interno) = 21,6t
21,6t + 1t = 22,6t ou 22.600kg ou 47.577lb
T/Wpc = 44.000 / 47.577 = 0,92
T/Wsem pc = 30.000 / 47.577 = 0,63

[PRick]

O dado de thrust-to-weight ratio, que é o fundamento, parece correto.

[]'s

A ver...a diferença é +/- essa, considerando cargas externas de 1t para ambos:

Rafale com comb. interno + 1t externo
24,5t - 9,5t = 15t (apenas com combustível interno)
15t + 1t = 16t ou 16.000kg ou 35.242lb
T/Wpc = 34.000 / 35.242 = 0,96
T/Wsem pc = 22.500 / 35.242 = 0,64

SH
14,8 (vazio) + 6,8t (comb interno) = 21,6t
21,6t + 1t = 22,6t ou 22.600kg ou 47.577lb
T/Wpc = 44.000 / 47.577 = 0,92
T/Wsem pc = 30.000 / 47.577 = 0,63

Os números ainda são melhores, vamos considerar o peso vazio do Rafale em 10 toneladas, a capacidade interna de combustível é de 4,5 toneladas, com mais uma tonelada, chegamos a 15,5 toneladas ou 34.171 libras. Então seriam 34.000/34.171= 0,99.

Agora temos que acrescentar um outro número muito importante, relação da carga alar ao peso da aeronave, quer dizer, o Rafale pesa em ordem de combate 15,5 toneladas, e tem carga alar de 45,70m².

Já o SH pesa na ordem mínima de combate 22,6 toneladas e tem carga alar 46,45 m².

Então somem esses dados para termos uma idéia da capacidade de sustentação do caça, e imaginem que essas relações são muito importantes na medida que ganhamos altitude. O F-18E foi baseado num caça bombadeiro médio, otimizado para combate ar-solo em baixas e médias altitudes, de uso terrestre. Se tentou fazer um caça naval multifuncional a partir disso.

Dá para imaginar a diferença de desempenho para atuar, onde os caças foram todos testados, na Caxemira? Coloquem aí algo ao redor 10.000 metros ou mais.

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[Booz]

Mais o "Tufão" está mais para interceptador do que multirole e nesta conformidade o Rafale levaria a melhor.